If Snider or Thames get sent down today,...

[Schad]

I'm referencing the ~.750 OPS (which is league-average) that he carried for the first 815 plate appearances of his career.

That .750 OPS stretch itself is riddled with hot streaks and cold streaks...

Indeed. As is fairly typical for power hitters, especially young ones.

.and here's the problem: he's having more and more "cold streaks" the longer he has been in the league.

If you only look at this season, yes.

The kid should be getting more consistent; not less. He needs to go back down and figure something out; this kid's **** isn't made of gold that he deserves to stay up all year long no matter how utterly useless he is.

Barely 100 plate appearances at a time. Forget a whole season...we haven't even given him a third of a season to figure things out before pulling the rug out from under him. That's horrific mismanagement.

[BigLeagueChew]

I'm starting to question the hitting coach and giving more and more credit to Cito Gaston for the last couple of years.

[Randle McMurphy]

Do some of you honestly think you know more than numerous people in the organization who have handled Snider?

Not the first time I've seen an appeal to authority by you to justify a move/decision. I doubt it will be the last.

In an ultimately meaningless year that was supposed to be about development, Travis Snider has only played 49 games and gotten 202 PA at the major league level. Even if you ignore that those games were split up by a two month stretch in AAA where the team asked him to completely revamp his swing, that still isn't much to evaluate him on.

When the Jays actually give him a legitimate opportunity to succeed or fail at this level without sending him down at the first sign of a slump, I'l start believing that Travis Snider doesn't have a future in this league as a hitter. Until that happens, though, this looks like the complete mismanagement of a talented player by a generally good organization. Such a waste.

[There There]

He was sent down in favour of keeping Mark Teahen on the 25 man roster for christ sakes.

No one is saying Snider is the second **** coming.

What is being objected to is we are shuttling him back to AAA, a tactic which has failed each time before, with two months left in the season in favour of keeping MARK **** TEAHEN on the roster.

I don't give a **** how much **** money he is owed through next season; for an organization that is talking about spending upwards of 140 million, it should be entirely **** inconsequential to release Teahen if it ensure's that Snider gets the remainder of the season to try to work through some of his issues.

[Michael Bradley]

Snider's ratios all went down this season. His ISO dropped to .126. His AB/HR has regressed badly to 60.67 (to put that in perspective, John McDonald's AB/HR from 2009-11 were 37.8, 25.3, and 74.5 respectively). He is walking less; in fact his walk rate per plate appearance has gone down each season since 2009 (MLB stats only), and his BB/K has plummeted as well. Basically, nothing he is doing right now shows any signs of a good MLB player, much less one the team can count on to be a plus bat in LF.

Would Snider have been better off playing everyday in the Majors the next two months to see if he was a viable LF option in 2012? Sure. But, like I have been saying, there might be other issues at work here. It is easy to blame the organization in cases like this, but it may run deeper than that. Two managers now are clearly not fond of Snider (Cito and Farrell), and the GM (one of the best in the game) doesn't seem to care too much either. Maybe the club has soured on him and boosting his AAA numbers might be more beneficial for his value than sucking in the Majors. Or maybe Murphy saw a flaw with him that he feels he can't fix. Or it could be as innocent as what AA has implied. Obviously AA really likes Encarnacion, and we know when AA likes someone playing time comes very often (see Jo Jo Reyes). It might just be a case of not wanting to sink Teahen's salary (unfortunately), and choosing between Thames and Snider to see more of EE. Unfortunately I think the only coach that could exploit EE's strengths is probably Cito Gaston (swing early, pull happy, etc) and he's not on the field anymore.

Snider could be a bust or he could be a season or two from putting it all together. I'm going to trust AA's judgment on this one either way. As someone who for two years has bought low, ignored perceived attitude problems, given young players a chance, etc, AA's treatment of Snider seems like an exception. The question then becomes, why is Snider the exception? None of us can answer that, other than by declining performance this season.

[Schad]

The problem MB is that we've always treated Snider this way. He carried an OPS north of .800 last year when he got injured, and then inexplicably spent another month in the minors thereafter. In 2009, he was mashing through the end of April before having a bad twelve-game stretch...we sent him down for three months. We've never allowed him to ride out his slumps; the moment he goes into one, we pack him off for AAA and overhaul his approach. I've never seen a top prospect given so little leash by a team with so little on the line.

[There There]

Snider's ratios all went down this season. His ISO dropped to .126. His AB/HR has regressed badly to 60.67 (to put that in perspective, John McDonald's AB/HR from 2009-11 were 37.8, 25.3, and 74.5 respectively). He is walking less; in fact his walk rate per plate appearance has gone down each season since 2009 (MLB stats only), and his BB/K has plummeted as well. Basically, nothing he is doing right now shows any signs of a good MLB player, much less one the team can count on to be a plus bat in LF.

And his walk rate, while not great, was much better during his stint in LV earlier.

Which mean's one of two things; he is struggling with reading pitches thrown by major league quality pitchers, or, we have driven him to the point that he now feels he needs to do something with the bat every time he steps up to the plate or else he may be sent down.

Both of those were compounded yesterday by sending him down again.

Would Snider have been better off playing everyday in the Majors the next two months to see if he was a viable LF option in 2012? Sure. But, like I have been saying, there might be other issues at work here. It is easy to blame the organization in cases like this, but it may run deeper than that. Two managers now are clearly not fond of Snider (Cito and Farrell), and the GM (one of the best in the game) doesn't seem to care too much either. Maybe the club has soured on him and boosting his AAA numbers might be more beneficial for his value than sucking in the Majors.

Similar things were said about Escobar and Rasmus, and Anthopolous (rightfully so) has been universally praised for acquiring both players.

What is happening with Snider is exactly the kind of situation Anthopolous would jump on if Snider was on another team. Snider is already on this team and we still cannot find consistent playing time for him ?

[Michael Bradley]

Similar things were said about Escobar and Rasmus, and Anthopolous (rightfully so) has been universally praised for acquiring both players.

What is happening with Snider is exactly the kind of situation Anthopolous would jump on if Snider was on another team. Snider is already on this team and we still cannot find consistent playing time for him ?

I see your point, but in the case of Rasmus and Escobar, it was a specific manager (La Russa and Cox respectively) that had issues with each player, not two different managers + the GM. At least under Cito it could be assumed that Snider's playing time (or lack thereof) was due to Gaston's preference of veterans, but now that Farrell isn't much of a Snider fan either based on playing time, and AA hasn't forced Farrell's hand in that regard (like he may have done with Jo Jo Reyes) then it leads me to believe that the organization as a whole does not view Snider in a positive light.

Another thing that differentiates Rasmus/Escobar/Morrow/etc from Snider was MLB success. Escobar was an all-star calibre SS before coming to Toronto. He was just having a bad season and a fall out with the coach/teammates. Rasmus had MLB success (2.8 and 4.3 WAR in 2009 and 2010 respectively) but had a well publicized feud with Tony La Russa that lead to his trade. Morrow was bounced around from role to role, but wasn't bad in any particular role, he was just not given a role for any extended period of time and AA took advantage of that. In regards to Snider, and where he differs from the others, is he hasn't been very successful at the MLB level. Forget "good for his age" talk, I am talking about real success. He is a corner OF at best defensively, likely in LF long-term. If AA has proven anything, it is that he values defense up the middle and generally acquires players that play premium positions (Rasmus/Gose-CF, Escobar-SS, Lawrie-3B, d'Arnaud-CA, etc). He is not like JP or Beane acquiring a bunch of 1B/DH/LF types whose value strictly comes from the bat. He obviously values two-way talent, and may see Snider as someone who doesn't do well enough offensively (long-term) to compensate for his position.

Again, none of us really know the true reason he is being bounced around. It could be a moot point. For all we know, Snider starts in LF next season and has an .850 OPS for the whole year. Or he could be a bust. Or he could be traded. I think the only thing we can agree on is he hasn't really done anything at the MLB level yet, whether it is due to his own doing or the organization's yanking him around.

[There There]

MB, yes, but he needs playing time to have an opportunity to succeed.

He has not received any sustained amount of playing time to work through his slumps. Go look at Rasmus' monthly splits and game logs. He went through some awful stretches himself but was allowed to work through them.

As soon as Snider hit's a rut, we send him down.

[Reignman]

Sounds like they want to see if EE can carry his hot streak so that they can decide whether his option should be picked up or not. Snider also admits that his approach from when he came up has slipped a bit over the last 2 weeks so he needs to work on that in LV.

I have a feeling EE will go back to his streaky self, AA decides he's not coming back and they bring Snider back up when the roster expands.

[Relentless88]

I wonder if Snider will ask for a trade? He's got to be frustrated with the way the Jays have handled his development.

[Schad]

I see your point, but in the case of Rasmus and Escobar, it was a specific manager (La Russa and Cox respectively) that had issues with each player, not two different managers + the GM. At least under Cito it could be assumed that Snider's playing time (or lack thereof) was due to Gaston's preference of veterans, but now that Farrell isn't much of a Snider fan either based on playing time, and AA hasn't forced Farrell's hand in that regard (like he may have done with Jo Jo Reyes) then it leads me to believe that the organization as a whole does not view Snider in a positive light.

Farrell also happens to be clinically (Please Use More Appropriate Word), so I'm not sure whether the combined preferences of he and Cito can really be considered the best gauge.

He is not like JP or Beane acquiring a bunch of 1B/DH/LF types whose value strictly comes from the bat. He obviously values two-way talent, and may see Snider as someone who doesn't do well enough offensively (long-term) to compensate for his position.

But why does that mean keeping Teahen and Encarnacion around while demoting Snider? That's the bit that escapes me...irrespective of their assessment of Snider's long-term outlook, there's no reason not to give him the rest of the season to figure things out.

Again, none of us really know the true reason he is being bounced around. It could be a moot point. For all we know, Snider starts in LF next season and has an .850 OPS for the whole year. Or he could be a bust. Or he could be traded. I think the only thing we can agree on is he hasn't really done anything at the MLB level yet, whether it is due to his own doing or the organization's yanking him around.

He hasn't done anything at the major-league level if we were expecting him to be a masher by age 23, but grading on the age curve he's been fine; heck, if Lawrie hits .250/.310/.400 over the remainder of the season, it'll be a considerable success.

We simply shouldn't be calling kids up at such young ages if the expectation that we're setting is for players to emerge from the minors fully formed...people always lobby for the kids to be called up at age 20-21 (which, it bears repeating, is unusually young for a debut; Snider was the youngest player in the majors when he was called up, and remained one of the youngest players the next season), but then freak out when they act like young players.

I`ve mentioned him before, but look at Jason Heyward. He has been awful since May 1st...a .622 OPS over a sample larger than Snider`s longest major league stint. Their solution: let him play through it, even though they`re in a tightly-contested pennant race. They acquired another outfielder in Michael Bourn at the deadline...it appears that they will still stick with Heyward as an everyday player. He`s that important to them, as Snider should have been to us.

[satyr9]

I don't agree with the demotion and I didn't agree with the last one this year, since I think Snider can still be very good and the best way to get there is to let him figure things out at the mlb level at this point and I was never under the illusion this was a full-on compete year, so just let the kid play.

That being said, I have no access to Snider or the coaches so it's conceivable there's actually a reason related to what is causing his struggles that doesn't require big league pitching (or whatever. Not likely, but you have to allow they may know more than we do about what's best for him). Not saying I think it's likely, but as much as I love a little armchair expertise, there's no way to prove just total incompetence.

Really I think this is more about playing time, and again I'm not agreeing with this evaluation, but every single time AA talks about Encarnacion I always come away feeling like he's convinced he's going to bust out permanently one day and doesn't want to miss it. Since they want to bring up Lawrie and play EE, there's nowhere for Snider to bat 'cause it'd be a pretty tough sell to Thames that he should sit because Snider is considered a better prospect.

I'm not trying to excuse or justify the move at all. If all that is true I'd still just DFA Teahen and keep Snider up and give everyone a 4th day off or whatever it is to rotate 1B/3B/LF/DH among 5 guys.

[Dr Positivity]

Met, do you honestly think Snider has been given a fair opportunity to succeed/fail.

Do some of you honestly think you know more than numerous people in the organization who have handled Snider?

No, one of the best GMs in the league is just actively trying to ruin Snider.

**** ridiculous. I'm tired of this babying BS; if he was showing absolutely ANYTHING he wouldn't have been sent down. Thats the problem; he's not showing ANYTHING. Absolutely zero plate control and zero power...you guys are right; us sending him up/down has taken that much of a toll on him.

I agree, it's not just that you're failing but how. And the how for Snider has been undeniably bad. He needs a reworking of his swing and approach... again.