ESPN: Plan B for Jays

[bigdirty]

I'm more interested in what plan D will be next season or plan G in 2013.

I'm getting sick or always thinking about next year when it comes to teams in Toronto. It's really getting to me that we can't produce a winner in any way.

All my hopes lay with TFC right now that they can get past L.A. in Champions League.

Some so-called respected fans on this very board were claiming this coming season would be the season they compete for the world series. I remember a couple of them insulting anyone who dared speak against them.

The Jays need to get some star quality pitching if they want to compete. It won't happen this year particularly after losing out on Darvish to a real contender. I hope they go after Fielder to give Bautista some protection. Will they? I'm sure plenty of non-loser teams are in the running so they odds are against them.

[Michael Bradley]

Plan B for the Jays should be to roll with what they have....unless they can make a deal for a real difference maker. Darvish, whether overhyped or not, at least had the potential to be a difference maker. I don't see anyone on that list of available SP's that fits that criteria, although I have always liked Garza.

If the Jays want to follow the Rays or even the Rangers path of development, then they need to go with what they have and hope for internal development. That means going with a rotation of Romero-Morrow-Cecil-Alvarez-Drabek (for example) and hoping some of those top arms pan out. Might be painful, might work out, who knows. But I don't think the club has any intention of using Edwin Jackson types as short-term fixes, nor should they.

Go elite or go with what you have. There is not much elite that is out there.

[James_Raptors]

Seems like we've been on a "plan B" for quite awhile now.

[Skin Blues]

What is with the opposition to short-term fixes? Isn't that exactly what we should be looking for considering the prospects that will start to pan out in 2013+? We pay a proven veteran some cash, we're a better team, we make no sacrifices at all of the future of the team. How can you scoff at that? Edwin Jackson's $12M/yr or whatever isn't going to affect us re-signing Lawrie/Rasmus/Yunel 5 years from now.

[bigdirty]

I think you have to be crazy to think the current Jays starting rotation can contend for anything. Every fan knows this. Yeah you can hope for the best, but reality is that past Romero it's a crap shoot.

[Parataxis]

Seems like we've been on a "plan B" for quite awhile now.

In the sense that we're aborting our team?

[Al_Oliver]

AA has been on the job over 2 years now. If this is plan B so be it, I prefer him at the helm than anyone else

[Michael Bradley]

What is with the opposition to short-term fixes? Isn't that exactly what we should be looking for considering the prospects that will start to pan out in 2013+? We pay a proven veteran some cash, we're a better team, we make no sacrifices at all of the future of the team. How can you scoff at that? Edwin Jackson's $12M/yr or whatever isn't going to affect us re-signing Lawrie/Rasmus/Yunel 5 years from now.

The Jays, whether any of us like it or not, are going to live or die off player development (unless they shock everyone and start spending big on free agents). Unless they can trade for a really young pitcher with big upside or trade for a Felix Hernandez type who is already established, they are better off seeing what they have.

For example, if Walton/Farrell are able to fix Kyle Drabek's problems from 2011 and he starts to turn things around in 2012, then he becomes five years of a controllable asset the Jays will be able to exploit. Whereas if you stick him in the PCL and give Edwin Jackson 200 league average innings in his place, it might make the team slightly better in 2012 but really won't make a huge difference (whereas replacing Drabek with Felix Hernandez would make a huge difference). The Jays are better off trying to fix Drabek (which will NOT happen in the PCL) than they are spending $10-12M a year on a good but not great starter like Jackson.

Unfortunately the Jays are being run like the Rays. In that scenario, the Jays need their own guys to pan out. That only happens when they are given a chance.

[flatjacket1]

Why do we need to acquire a pitcher THIS year? We have a load of guys in AA and A+/A- ball who aim to make the rotation some day. You saw the last few drafts, and this upcoming one is supposed to be stacked with HS pitching so it should work out nicely.

I wouldn't worry too much about the rotation, everybody is still so young that by the time Romero hits 30 we could have Noah and Hutch easily filling out 4 and 5.

I will be deeply saddened if we forfeit a ton of talent via trade for a guy who isn't much better than the guys are projected to be. Of course you have to factor in that a ton of pitchers fail at various levels of the minors before making a major league roster.

PS I would still be looking to get a deal done on Prince.

[Randle McMurphy]

What is with the opposition to short-term fixes? Isn't that exactly what we should be looking for considering the prospects that will start to pan out in 2013+? We pay a proven veteran some cash, we're a better team, we make no sacrifices at all of the future of the team. How can you scoff at that? Edwin Jackson's $12M/yr or whatever isn't going to affect us re-signing Lawrie/Rasmus/Yunel 5 years from now.

Agreed...I see nothing wrong with trading for or signing players that can help over the next few seasons. There is no reason to just throw away 2012 because they lost the Darvish bid.

Personally, I'd love to see a Garza trade still. Prospects are increasingly overvalued by other teams and AA should capitalize on this.

[Chevy Chase]

Just because Yanks/Sox claim to not be interested does not diminish his value and his potential contract value much.

All it is going to cost to get him is money, a team does not give up any talent to get him. Thats is something that is huge regardless if its a big market or small market, whether your propect pool is big or small.

Agreed, except for penny pinching teams like the Jays, if we do spend big on someone like fielder, and for whatever reason (injury, slump) he doesn't produce, its the loss of being able to spend on anyone else that hampers us. Look what Vernon Wells did to our team. We didn't touch another legit free agent because he was already taking up too much payroll. If the Red sox or Yankees had put too much money into a non-producing player, they would simply spend more to correct the mistake.

[The Duke]

Just because Yanks/Sox claim to not be interested does not diminish his value and his potential contract value much.

All it is going to cost to get him is money, a team does not give up any talent to get him. Thats is something that is huge regardless if its a big market or small market, whether your propect pool is big or small.

Agreed, except for penny pinching teams like the Jays, if we do spend big on someone like fielder, and for whatever reason (injury, slump) he doesn't produce, its the loss of being able to spend on anyone else that hampers us. Look what Vernon Wells did to our team. We didn't touch another legit free agent because he was already taking up too much payroll. If the Red sox or Yankees had put too much money into a non-producing player, they would simply spend more to correct the mistake.

I get what this is trying to say... but ... its like.. we should pass up on one legit free agent, so we can have the chance to possibily add another legit free agent (down the road).

In my opinion, if their is a legit Free Agent possibily on the door step, you make the move now ... as you may not have that same option down the line.

[James_Raptors]

Seems like we've been on a "plan B" for quite awhile now.

In the sense that we're aborting our team?

Can't speak for others, obviously, but I'm not aborting the team.
I'm a Jays fan for life. That doesn't mean I'm a blind supporter of Rogers, and yes, I understand that's it is difficult and possibly hipocritical to support the Jays and knowingly help fill Rogers coffers, without supporting their company/ownership.

I am old enough to know what it was like to go without MLB in Toronto, or basketball in Toronto, for that matter. I love our sports teams, and not because we're always the most competative (recently) but because I'm an avid sports fan. I was as a child and I still am now, in my 40's. I will be vocal if I feel we're being too cheap, or simply making decisions I don't necessarily agree with. I choose to be loyal, but with eyes wide open. On the other hand, I appreciate that I am just one fan with one opinion. Sharing my thoughts doesn't make me an expert nor does it mean I have nothing to add or that my opinion is meaningless.

I guess my point is, I love sports and I was born in Toronto. Because of these two facts I want us to have winning franchise(s) and I will not be happy, each and every year, unless we compete and build towards that goal. Yes, this means going through growing periods (call it stocking our minors with nice prospects, rebuilding, building, or w/e). But I have high expectations and will never settle for mediocrity.

Sort of off-topic a bit, we've seen alot of Rogers bashing around here. It's hard not to, considering they are the face of our baseball franchise, like it or love it. While I do agree, there may have been some over-the-top comments over the past year or two, Rogers are still the owners of this team and I will not cower and keep opinion to myself because it's frowned upon, or creates conflict. We should be demanding a winner around here. We should be proud to call ourselves Torontonians or hell, even Canadians. Toronto Blue Jays aren't just Toronto's team, they are Canada's team. Whether they are owned by Rogers, Bell, or some individual named Parataxi on the RealGM forums, I expect that same level of dedication to building a winner.

[Michael Bradley]

Why do we need to acquire a pitcher THIS year? We have a load of guys in AA and A+/A- ball who aim to make the rotation some day. You saw the last few drafts, and this upcoming one is supposed to be stacked with HS pitching so it should work out nicely.

I wouldn't worry too much about the rotation, everybody is still so young that by the time Romero hits 30 we could have Noah and Hutch easily filling out 4 and 5.

I will be deeply saddened if we forfeit a ton of talent via trade for a guy who isn't much better than the guys are projected to be. Of course you have to factor in that a ton of pitchers fail at various levels of the minors before making a major league roster.

I remember in 2007 the Jays were scrambling for starting pitchers, missing out on Gil Meche and unable to re-sign Ted Lilly, Ricciardi went ahead and signed Ohka, Thomson, and Zambrano to patch up the bottom end of the rotation. By the end of that season, the three best options after Halladay and Burnett were all from the Jays farm system (McGowan, Marcum, and Litsch). Even this year the Jays ran Jo Jo Reyes out there for 20 starts when they could have simply put Rzep in there and possibly gotten a lesser version of Gio Gonzalez (control issues and all).

I'm not against signing talent on the short-term that can make the team better, but if they want to be run like the Rays, then go with the farm system. Even the Rangers rotation last season was filled with converted relievers and young pitchers from their farm system. Unless the Jays can get an elite pitching talent, try to fix the talent already on the team. I would rather Joel Carreno get 30 starts than trading for Wandy Rodriguez and his $12M a year contract. The Jays only hope of competing is a 2008-Rays level break out. That's not going to happen with a rotation filled with league average starters. Stick Drabek, Alvarez, Morrow, etc, in there and hope they pitch to their potential.

[Parataxis]

Clearly you missed my clever pharmaceuticals pun.

I absolutely agree with the sentiment of your last paragraph though (even if I disagree with the means). Development from within is needed, but so is signing elite level talent (not mediocre talent) in FA or trades when the opportunity presents itself.


I support Four of the Six Toronto sportsteams wholeheartedly, which is why I demand that we at least try to be competitive.

Seems like we've been on a "plan B" for quite awhile now.

In the sense that we're aborting our team?

Can't speak for others, obviously, but I'm not aborting the team.
I'm a Jays fan for life. That doesn't mean I'm a blind supporter of Rogers, and yes, I understand that's it is difficult and possibly hipocritical to support the Jays and knowingly help fill Rogers coffers, without supporting their company/ownership.

I am old enough to know what it was like to go without MLB in Toronto, or basketball in Toronto, for that matter. I love our sports teams, and not because we're always the most competative (recently) but because I'm an avid sports fan. I was as a child and I still am now, in my 40's. I will be vocal if I feel we're being too cheap, or simply making decisions I don't necessarily agree with. I choose to be loyal, but with eyes wide open. On the other hand, I appreciate that I am just one fan with one opinion. Sharing my thoughts doesn't make me an expert nor does it mean I have nothing to add or that my opinion is meaningless.

I guess my point is, I love sports and I was born in Toronto. Because of these two facts I want us to have winning franchise(s) and I will not be happy, each and every year, unless we compete and build towards that goal. Yes, this means going through growing periods (call it stocking our minors with nice prospects, rebuilding, building, or w/e). But I have high expectations and will never settle for mediocrity.

Sort of off-topic a bit, we've seen alot of Rogers bashing around here. It's hard not to, considering they are the face of our baseball franchise, like it or love it. While I do agree, there may have been some over-the-top comments over the past year or two, Rogers are still the owners of this team and I will not cower and keep opinion to myself because it's frowned upon, or creates conflict. We should be demanding a winner around here. We should be proud to call ourselves Torontonians or hell, even Canadians. Toronto Blue Jays aren't just Toronto's team, they are Canada's team. Whether they are owned by Rogers, Bell, or some individual named Parataxi on the RealGM forums, I expect that same level of dedication to building a winner.

[agkagk]

whoever signs oswalt will get an absolute steal. pending his health, whichever team signs him will get the best free agent bargain of the off season, just sayin'

[James_Raptors]

Clearly you missed my clever pharmaceuticals pun.

I absolutely agree with the sentiment of your last paragraph though (even if I disagree with the means). Development from within is needed, but so is signing elite level talent (not mediocre talent) in FA or trades when the opportunity presents itself.


I support Four of the Six Toronto sportsteams wholeheartedly, which is why I demand that we at least try to be competitive.

Can't speak for others, obviously, but I'm not aborting the team.
I'm a Jays fan for life. That doesn't mean I'm a blind supporter of Rogers, and yes, I understand that's it is difficult and possibly hipocritical to support the Jays and knowingly help fill Rogers coffers, without supporting their company/ownership.

I am old enough to know what it was like to go without MLB in Toronto, or basketball in Toronto, for that matter. I love our sports teams, and not because we're always the most competative (recently) but because I'm an avid sports fan. I was as a child and I still am now, in my 40's. I will be vocal if I feel we're being too cheap, or simply making decisions I don't necessarily agree with. I choose to be loyal, but with eyes wide open. On the other hand, I appreciate that I am just one fan with one opinion. Sharing my thoughts doesn't make me an expert nor does it mean I have nothing to add or that my opinion is meaningless.

I guess my point is, I love sports and I was born in Toronto. Because of these two facts I want us to have winning franchise(s) and I will not be happy, each and every year, unless we compete and build towards that goal. Yes, this means going through growing periods (call it stocking our minors with nice prospects, rebuilding, building, or w/e). But I have high expectations and will never settle for mediocrity.

Sort of off-topic a bit, we've seen alot of Rogers bashing around here. It's hard not to, considering they are the face of our baseball franchise, like it or love it. While I do agree, there may have been some over-the-top comments over the past year or two, Rogers are still the owners of this team and I will not cower and keep opinion to myself because it's frowned upon, or creates conflict. We should be demanding a winner around here. We should be proud to call ourselves Torontonians or hell, even Canadians. Toronto Blue Jays aren't just Toronto's team, they are Canada's team. Whether they are owned by Rogers, Bell, or some individual named Parataxi on the RealGM forums, I expect that same level of dedication to building a winner.

Am I allowed to blame it on the fact that they put me on 5 different meds when I was released from the hospital?

[wbbfan]

whoever signs oswalt will get an absolute steal. pending his health, whichever team signs him will get the best free agent bargain of the off season, just sayin'

This, not only in his pitching but looking at possible comp pick next off season, trade dead line bait or luring him into a long term deal. Some one is gonna be very happy this year after picking him up.

[Parataxis]

Clearly you missed my clever pharmaceuticals pun.

Am I allowed to blame it on the fact that they put me on 5 different meds when I was released from the hospital?

I'd prefer that to blaming it on my sucky puns.