OT: MLB to investigate "East-Coast BALCO"

[Randle McMurphy]

I never took PED's. So I'm not a hypocrite.

Indeed and that makes you just the worst kind of hypocrite. The know-nothing kind.

I do enjoy how people like yourself routinely ascribe tenets like honor and trust to an entertainment business like MLB, though. A business designed only to make vast amounts of money off the players (who are admittedly well compensated for their work) through ticket, television, and merchandise sales. Players aren't stealing from the fans by taking PEDs and being the best they can be on the field of play. In reality, they're just giving those owners, those teams, those fans and everyone in between exactly what they all want to see.

Of course, it's certainly all right for others in day-to-day life to take performance enhancers to get through their jobs and better their production, but when elite athletes do it in their chosen profession, nope, that's crossing the moralizers' line. Absurd double standard based on the public mythologizing of sports entertainment as something more than it is.

And if you aren't a hypocrite either, you must have personal experience with PED's. So from an advice perspective, at what age would you suggest telling your kid to take The Cream and The Clear. Or is it better to start with one at a time?

Nice straw man, Helen Lovejoy. I wouldn't advise children take PEDs at all, nor have I ever (or would ever) advocate for such a thing. That has exactly nothing to do with me advocating for consenting adults having the right to do whatever they want with their own bodies (provided they aren't hurting others).

[distracted]

It's always amazing to me how many people believe this hypocritical nonsense.

I never took PED's. So I'm not a hypocrite.

I don't presume you're a hypocrite either, since you obviously have no problem with them. So from an advice perspective, at what age would you suggest telling your kid to take The Cream and The Clear. Or is it better to start with one at a time?

So if you're against prohibition, you're supposed to suggest telling your kid to be a drunk?

[SharoneWright]

I don't think you guys understand the meaning of the word hypocrite.

And considering getting drunk has no performance benefit, and we are talking about artificially improving your performance, I'm not quite following the analogy. I guess I'm wondering if there's an arbitrary line/age that Randy has deduced at which it's OK for kids to begin their "training". And if there is, say 13 years old, whether he is not moralizing too... Then again, he already said he's not in favor of kids taking PED's (with a little umbrage thrown in for good measure!), so a little morality already shines through... how terrible!! lol.

Listen up Random, you may not like that I prefer a common set of rules to be both followed and enforced, but your repeated assertions that I'm hypocritical or ignorant say nothing about who I am, only that you don't have the EQ to play well with others. But go ahead and enjoy the "show"... (Yankees win btw)

It really is a WWE generation out there.

"Are you not entertained!"

[LLJ]

Up Next

I'm not so sure. You look at a guy like Bonds or A-ROD and you can see a noticeable difference in size and muscle mass through the years. Joey Bats has been the same size for years, same with E5.

I'm not saying it isn't possible but I doubt it.

If they actually are on it, I hope at least they're caught AFTER we win the World Series...

[Avenger]

It's code. Baseball happens as a competition between men between the lines. ARod and his ilk have "stolen" the trust of the fans, results and real money from their fellow players, and authenticity/honour from the game. All for personal gain.

all of that is only the case because people with zero knowledge of the science arbitrarily decided that certain medical interventions are okay and others aren't. Why is okay for pitchers to push the boundaries of the human body because they always have the option of Tommy John surgery in their back pocket ? Why can't we allow athletes to push their phyical limits in other areas?

Churning out 100 cogs with a cortisone shot steals from no one. Plus, it's not cheating. It's sacrifice. You think Arod "sacrificed' by taking steroids??? For his family???

You're making this personal, its not about defending A - Rod or any of these douchebags. What if Mike Trout blows out a knee and has to miss a season and a half to rehab that could be cut down to only one season by taking something that is currently banned? How could anyone possibly argue that keeping Trout on the bench for an extra half a season is good for the fans or good for the game? What if we can prolong Bryce Harpers career by three years ? It seems downright immoral to force players to give away years of earning potential because Joe Six pack seems uncomfortable about something he doesn't even begin to understand.

[SharoneWright]

Surgery isn't perfomance enhancing relative to normal human capability.

But steroid use only if injured...?

I might be OK with steroids to help a "blown out knee" or blown out elbow. But the thing is they don't really. Surgery does. So,,, under the guise of providing marginal benefit to the rare torn-ACL injury, do we now approve substances for mass consumption that are especially effective in artificially improving healthy muscle stregth/recovery? And will MLB decide on what qualifies as "injured enough"?

Anyway, that's a new line that's going to also need strict policing. ARod could argue he's been "hurt" his whole career... The 'moralizers' would still have their work to do! Not to mention Joe Sixpack Ignoramus.

[Randle McMurphy]

And considering getting drunk has no performance benefit, and we are talking about artificially improving your performance, I'm not quite following the analogy.

Alcohol use may have no performance benefit, but is certainly a lot more harmful to human health and society at large than what you're ignorantly railing against. Alcohol kills tens of thousands every year and actually has a detrimental impact on other people in the form of vehicular homicides and alcohol-related violence. In contrast, the use of PEDs is a victimless "crime." And yet society (and apparently you as well) has no problem with alcohol because it's within the boundaries of the law, but takes offense with a few athletes wanting to work out more frequently and become the best they can be at their chosen profession. This is the latent hypocrisy of which I speak although there are multiple variables at play.

I guess I'm wondering if there's an arbitrary line/age that Randy has deduced at which it's OK for kids to begin their "training". And if there is, say 13 years old, whether he is not moralizing too... Then again, he already said he's not in favor of kids taking PED's (with a little umbrage thrown in for good measure!), so a little morality already shines through... how terrible!! lol.

I'm not sure what wasn't clear about the difference between consenting adults (18+) being able to do what they want with their bodies and children who are still developing into their bodies not being able to.

Listen up Random, you may not like that I prefer a common set of rules to be both followed and enforced, but your repeated assertions that I'm hypocritical or ignorant say nothing about who I am, only that you don't have the EQ to play well with others. But go ahead and enjoy the "show"... (Yankees win btw)

The point is that those "common set of rules" are hypocritical and grounded more in fear and misunderstanding than facts.

[Homer Jay]

And considering getting drunk has no performance benefit, and we are talking about artificially improving your performance, I'm not quite following the analogy.

Alcohol use may have no performance benefit, but is certainly a lot more harmful to human health and society at large than what you're ignorantly railing against. Alcohol kills tens of thousands every year and actually has a detrimental impact on other people in the form of automobile accidents and homicides. In contrast, the use of PEDs is a victimless "crime." And yet society (and apparently you as well) has no problem with alcohol because it's within the boundaries of the law, but takes offense with a few athletes wanting to work out more frequently and become the best they can be at their chosen profession. This is the latent hypocrisy of which I speak although there are multiple variables at play.

I guess I'm wondering if there's an arbitrary line/age that Randy has deduced at which it's OK for kids to begin their "training". And if there is, say 13 years old, whether he is not moralizing too... Then again, he already said he's not in favor of kids taking PED's (with a little umbrage thrown in for good measure!), so a little morality already shines through... how terrible!! lol.

I'm not sure what wasn't clear about the difference between consenting adults (18+) being able to do what they want with their bodies and children who are still developing into their bodies not being able to.

Listen up Random, you may not like that I prefer a common set of rules to be both followed and enforced, but your repeated assertions that I'm hypocritical or ignorant say nothing about who I am, only that you don't have the EQ to play well with others. But go ahead and enjoy the "show"... (Yankees win btw)

The point is that those "common set of rules" are hypocritical and grounded more in fear and misunderstanding rather than facts.

You're missing the part where these are prescription medicines in both the U.S. and Canada and these athletes either 1) obtained them without a prescription (they broke the law) or 2) Their physicians prescribed them without a legitimate reason to (meaning the doctor broke the law/ethics violation, in which case the players would be forced to testify against them). There is still the outstanding issue of breaking baseball's rules itself. Meaning you are fine with player's betting against their teams, corking bats, etc? Rules are rules whether they are fair or not. You start cherry picking which ones apply, and you risk lawsuits from people like Pete Rose or the descendents of the Black Sox, etc.

[Skin Blues]

Miguel Cabrera was everybody's hero this past season while Bonds and Clemens were demonized. Think about that for a second, and then hop back onto your moral cloud of ignorance.

[Randle McMurphy]

You're missing the part where these are prescription medicines in both the U.S. and Canada and these athletes either 1) obtained them without a prescription (they broke the law) or 2) Their physicians prescribed them without a legitimate reason to (meaning the doctor broke the law/ethics violation, in which case the players would be forced to testify against them).

And you seem to be missing the entire crux of my argument which is to both legalize these drugs in baseball and society at large.

Meaning you are fine with player's betting against their teams, corking bats, etc?

Straw man. Betting against your own team isn't remotely comparable to PED use beyond the fact that they are both against baseball's rules (the former involves players potentially compromising the integrity of the competition, the latter involves players trying to be the best they can be for their team). I don't think I'd mind players corking their bats considering that doesn't have an effect anyway.

Rules are rules whether they are fair or not. You start cherry picking which ones apply, and you risk lawsuits from people like Pete Rose or the descendents of the Black Sox, etc.

When rules/laws make no sense, you change them. You don't follow them ignorantly and blindly.

[spykelee]

I do not like steroid use in baseball/all sports, and perhaps more importantly, I hate what they've done to sports. Every great moment, every great player, and every great accomplishment is now under the assumption of guilty until proven innocent. I grew up and appreciated sports for the great accomplishments, but now, almost all of them are done by people who are circumventing the rules in 1 way or another.

That said, I don't blame the athletes. There's so much money both in contracts, and endorsments that of course you'll do anything required to achieve super stardom. Not to mention that if many of your competitors are doing things, if you just want to keep up then you've gotta do it too.

The bottom line for me is; I consider steroid use cheating. But it's at the point where there's so many things available, either via supplement, surgery and what have you, that there's a huge grey area of what's okay and what isn't. As much as I dissapprove of steroid use in sports, it just isn't that black and white anymore and I have no idea how you could possibly police it with all the supplements and availability in this day and age.

I probably agree with Randle in that you need to do full scale legalization to "combat" the problem so to speak because you just can't enforce it the other way. It's gotten too sophisticated. But I despise that steroid use allows players and participants in all walks of sports to achieve such ridiculous and in many cases sacred accomplishments. To me, that complately tarnishes the athlete, the sport, and the accomplishment.

[Homer Jay]

You're missing the part where these are prescription medicines in both the U.S. and Canada and these athletes either 1) obtained them without a prescription (they broke the law) or 2) Their physicians prescribed them without a legitimate reason to (meaning the doctor broke the law/ethics violation, in which case the players would be forced to testify against them).

And you seem to be missing the entire crux of my argument which is to both legalize these drugs in baseball and society at large.

Meaning you are fine with player's betting against their teams, corking bats, etc?

Straw man. Betting against your own team isn't remotely comparable to PED use beyond the fact that they are both against baseball's rules (the former involves players potentially compromising the integrity of the competition, the latter involves players trying to be the best they can be for their team). I don't think I'd mind players corking their bats considering that doesn't have an effect anyway.

Rules are rules whether they are fair or not. You start cherry picking which ones apply, and you risk lawsuits from people like Pete Rose or the descendents of the Black Sox, etc.

When rules/laws make no sense, you change them. You don't follow them ignorantly and blindly.

The thing is, even if we legalize today, it doesn't make what Bonds/Clemens did "ok" retroactively. They actively sought to deceive the rules at the time. Whether we we say the actual steroid use is nothing big in retrospect, the conscious circumvention of the standing rules and laws at the time is the issue.

That's why I bring up the other instances of people being banned for different offenses. It's not the actual offense at the heart of the matter, it's that they knew what they were doing was not allowed and did it anyway. The will full deception is what leads to their punishment.

I'll leave it up to the doctors and governing boards to determine whether steroids should be freely available or not to people. I honestly don't know enough about them and their effects to argue either side of that debate.

[Randle McMurphy]

The thing is, even if we legalize today, it doesn't make what Bonds/Clemens did "ok" retroactively. They actively sought to deceive the rules at the time.

Bonds and Clemens have exactly nothing to do with what's being discussed in this thread. But in reality, at the time those two supposedly used, there were no baseball rules against PED use and their use was just part of a much larger culture that fully accepted it. They've only been singled out among the majority because they were just that much better than everyone else.

That's why I bring up the other instances of people being banned for different offenses. It's not the actual offense at the heart of the matter, it's that they knew what they were doing was not allowed and did it anyway. The will full deception is what leads to their punishment.

Actually, it's the lying about it in front of Congress that got the Feds to waste a whole bunch of tax dollars trying to convict a couple of athletes for taking PEDs. Never advisable to do that.

[kavan]

I would be lying if I said that I dont believe that all sports know of the doping but someone started creating a fuss. It is entertainment we wanted to see records be beaten and new ones be set. It is all fun to watch, from the ball being knocked out of the park (Bonds) to striking out 3000+ guys (Clemons). I think it is fair to assume most players may take it but I dont blame them if everyone is "doing it" then you know what so be it, the playing field is pretty leveled. Some who dont kudos to them and let them continue their hard work.

I just think we are not getting the entire story next we will find out how many of these games were fixed. It is clear to me with so many people set to benefit from match/game fixing that it has to be happening. You can tell from the blown calls and so forth. I think after all it is entertainment I just hope it doesnt become like wrestling one day! Keep some of the integrity.

[TheMainEvent]

Three more Major League players have been identified on Biogenesis clinic records obtained by Yahoo! Sports.

Ryan Braun, Francisco Cervelli and Danny Valencia were listed on records, but unlike the players named in the Miami New Times report, the trio weren't listed next to any specific PEDs.

Milwaukee Brewers star Ryan Braun's name is in records of the Miami-area clinic alleged to have distributed performance-enhancing drugs to a rash of baseball players, and Major League Baseball will investigate the link to the former MVP who tested positive for illegal synthetic testosterone during the 2011 postseason.

Three of the Biogenesis clinic records obtained by Yahoo! Sports show Braun's name. Unlike the players named by the Miami New Times in its report that blew open the Biogenesis case, Braun's name is not listed next to any specific PEDs. Braun said his attorneys retained the clinic's operator, Anthony Bosch, as a consultant during his appeal for the positive test.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ryan-braun ... 50670.html

Silly Braun.

[Duffman100]

Three more Major League players have been identified on Biogenesis clinic records obtained by Yahoo! Sports.

Ryan Braun, Francisco Cervelli and Danny Valencia were listed on records, but unlike the players named in the Miami New Times report, the trio weren't listed next to any specific PEDs.

Milwaukee Brewers star Ryan Braun's name is in records of the Miami-area clinic alleged to have distributed performance-enhancing drugs to a rash of baseball players, and Major League Baseball will investigate the link to the former MVP who tested positive for illegal synthetic testosterone during the 2011 postseason.

Three of the Biogenesis clinic records obtained by Yahoo! Sports show Braun's name. Unlike the players named by the Miami New Times in its report that blew open the Biogenesis case, Braun's name is not listed next to any specific PEDs. Braun said his attorneys retained the clinic's operator, Anthony Bosch, as a consultant during his appeal for the positive test.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ryan-braun ... 50670.html

Silly Braun.

I just traded for him in my keeper league. I'm going to lose my mind.

[Wo1verine]

10 more names are about to be listed. One more big name at least according to Dan Patrick.

I am worried about Jays players, especially the Dominicans on our team.

[Wo1verine]

Mariners’ Jesus Montero on PED list

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... -1.1256495