ST: Blue Jays @ Braves September 15-17

[kayliecee]

i'm in love with her.

Who wouldn't be. She's utterly charming, she's smart, and gorgeous.

I'm not... Not that I have anything against her or anything, but I'm not "in love with her".

Perfect, the exception; we now have a rule.

[s e n s i]

I missed the game this eve and caught a little bit of Wilner after the game. He was talking about a play where someone was trying to break up a double play and it resulted in an injury? Can anyone elaborate?

wasn't listening but i assume wilner was talking about jung-ho kang's left leg getting massacred on a clean, hard break-up slide by chris coghlan. we thought losing our star SS for three weeks was bad, imagine how bucs fans are feeling right now with kang out for 6-8 months.

[Boogie!]

I missed the game this eve and caught a little bit of Wilner after the game. He was talking about a play where someone was trying to break up a double play and it resulted in an injury? Can anyone elaborate?

wasn't listening but i assume wilner was talking about jung-ho kang's left leg getting massacred on a clean, hard break-up slide by chris coghlan. we thought losing our star SS for three weeks was bad, imagine how bucs fans are feeling right now with kang out for 6-8 months.

how long before they start banning take out slides?

just saw that video too, he wasnt even going for the base, kang was already off the basepath and the guy literally slid into his knee... that **** (Please Use More Appropriate Word) man... i understand trying to break up double plays and you dont see these freak injuries often, but i think there should be a rule here that if the defender is already OUT of the basepath you cant slide into him... i realize at times it might be hard to determine what being out of the basepath is, but yeah its (Please Use More Appropriate Word) when youre clearly not sliding into the bag and literally are sliding right into a player... dangerous too...

[s e n s i]

I missed the game this eve and caught a little bit of Wilner after the game. He was talking about a play where someone was trying to break up a double play and it resulted in an injury? Can anyone elaborate?

wasn't listening but i assume wilner was talking about jung-ho kang's left leg getting massacred on a clean, hard break-up slide by chris coghlan. we thought losing our star SS for three weeks was bad, imagine how bucs fans are feeling right now with kang out for 6-8 months.

how long before they start banning take out slides?

just saw that video too, he wasnt even going for the base, kang was already off the basepath and the guy literally slid into his knee... that **** (Please Use More Appropriate Word) man... i understand trying to break up double plays and you dont see these freak injuries often, but i think there should be a rule here that if the defender is already OUT of the basepath you cant slide into him... i realize at times it might be hard to determine what being out of the basepath is, but yeah its (Please Use More Appropriate Word) when youre clearly not sliding into the bag and literally are sliding right into a player... dangerous too...

that's debatable as coghlan had already started his slide before kang led into him to get something extra on the throw. that's the cost of trying to turn two unfortunately, but also why the "neighbourhood play" exists. and as a runner with decent speed you pretty much have to slide once the 2B/SS catches the ball or good chance you get smoked by the throw to first, which is probably just as dangerous.

hard and early slides in the general area of 2B (as long as you can make contact with the base which coghlan was able to do) will never be outlawed because one player gets seriously hurt among the hundreds of broken-up double plays over the course of a season. double plays would be automatic in that case and then all of a sudden it's not baseball anymore with teams conceding two outs on one groundball. it's also the pivots responsibility to avoid the incoming slide but kang was turning that DP come hell or high water and just barely did, so respects to him.

[The_Hater]

Delgado was a beast, and a gentleman.

Shame he won't make the HOF. Haters gonna hate cause he played in Canada.

I'm not sure that's the reason he's not in the hall. His numbers certainly aren't a no-brainer even playing in the juiced ball era and he shouldn't be there ahead of Jeff Bagwell, who never played in Canada, or the criminally underrated Tim Raines who probably fits your description better.

[Santoki]

Delgado was a beast, and a gentleman.

Shame he won't make the HOF. Haters gonna hate cause he played in Canada.

I'm not sure that's the reason he's not in the hall. His numbers certainly aren't a no-brainer even playing in the juiced ball era and he shouldn't be there ahead of Jeff Bagwell, who never played in Canada, or the criminally underrated Tim Raines who probably fits your description better.

I was thinking about this earlier. At what point does the criteria for getting into the Hall change? Clearly guys aren't going to hit for those kinds of numbers again. So when deciding which players of this era are getting in, how does the criteria change and who are they compared to?

I'm sure it's organic but I find the generational change interesting in that it'll leave guys with clearly superior numbers on the outside looking in.

[The_Hater]

Shame he won't make the HOF. Haters gonna hate cause he played in Canada.

I'm not sure that's the reason he's not in the hall. His numbers certainly aren't a no-brainer even playing in the juiced ball era and he shouldn't be there ahead of Jeff Bagwell, who never played in Canada, or the criminally underrated Tim Raines who probably fits your description better.

I was thinking about this earlier. At what point does the criteria for getting into the Hall change? Clearly guys aren't going to hit for those kinds of numbers again. So when deciding which players of this era are getting in, how does the criteria change and who are they compared to?

I'm sure it's organic but I find the generational change interesting in that it'll leave guys with clearly superior numbers on the outside looking in.

That's a good question. I think the baseball HOF will be forever tarnished because of all the great players who won't get in now I can see both sides of this debate but IMO if the hall is supposed to feature baseballs history then you can leave out Rose or ARod or Bonds or Clemens even though they're not great people and they all cheated. Heck even the suspects are getting penalized now. Gaylord Perry admits he used the spitter for years but he's still in there and Ty Cobb is a well known racist and all around jerk.

[0 - 100]

You realize, if we win enough games to catch the Royals, we're probably going to win our division? I don't see how trying to catch the team that's two games ahead of us is worse than focusing on the team that's three games behind us. It's not like they're going to take it easy in the series against the Yankees. We need those games to catch the Royals.

BTW, me barely looking at he Yankees has no bearing on how hard the Blue Jays play.

Listen, let me put it like this for you, we need to keep gaining momentum on the Yankees. We haven't won the division and there isn't a big enough lead yet. Not sure what don't you get. We have the worst luck in the world. Anything can happen. We could drop tonight's game and the Yankees could win and then Yankees could come here and sweep us. Not likely, but it COULD happen.

Yes obviously if we take care of business every game, we will eventually win the division and possibly catch the Royals. But the Yankees are still very much on the radar and shouldn't barely looked at as you said. Just admit you shouldn't have said that, that's all.

I think we have very different philosophies. I don't feel constantly victimized by "the worst luck in the world". I never post about crappy umpires or bad luck or think "game over" when there's plenty of time left in a game. I don't spend a ton of time blaming coaches or GMs or players because we lose games. I never say or think FML.

Listen, you can spend your days worrying about being caught by the Yankees if you want. Don't expect me to be like you. To me, it's that scared, loser mentality that causes teams to choke. To me, the Blue Jays' record still doesn't reflect how good they are. They're going to beat the Yankees, and the only question is whether they catch the Royals.

It isn't a loser mentality. It's reality. This whole board and media are always checking Yankees games to see if they win or lose. Watching highlights of the Jays are always followed up with highlights from the Yankee game. There is a reason for that and that reason is we are only 3.5 games ahead of them with 3 games left to go head to head. I agree we will end up winning the division but that doesn't mean we can forget about them.

And yes, the Jays have done nothing in the last 22 years. The Yankees have been the opposite. In no way should we forget that.

[Boogie!]

Listen, let me put it like this for you, we need to keep gaining momentum on the Yankees. We haven't won the division and there isn't a big enough lead yet. Not sure what don't you get. We have the worst luck in the world. Anything can happen. We could drop tonight's game and the Yankees could win and then Yankees could come here and sweep us. Not likely, but it COULD happen.

Yes obviously if we take care of business every game, we will eventually win the division and possibly catch the Royals. But the Yankees are still very much on the radar and shouldn't barely looked at as you said. Just admit you shouldn't have said that, that's all.

I think we have very different philosophies. I don't feel constantly victimized by "the worst luck in the world". I never post about crappy umpires or bad luck or think "game over" when there's plenty of time left in a game. I don't spend a ton of time blaming coaches or GMs or players because we lose games. I never say or think FML.

Listen, you can spend your days worrying about being caught by the Yankees if you want. Don't expect me to be like you. To me, it's that scared, loser mentality that causes teams to choke. To me, the Blue Jays' record still doesn't reflect how good they are. They're going to beat the Yankees, and the only question is whether they catch the Royals.

It isn't a loser mentality. It's reality. This whole board and media are always checking Yankees games to see if they win or lose. Watching highlights of the Jays are always followed up with highlights from the Yankee game. There is a reason for that and that reason is we are only 3.5 games ahead of them with 3 games left to go head to head. I agree we will end up winning the division but that doesn't mean we can forget about them.

And yes, the Jays have done nothing in the last 22 years. The Yankees have been the opposite. In no way should we forget that.

only thing i disagree with is this sentiment. you had a point until you added this... i hate when people make these generalized statements regarding specific organizations... the jays doing nothing in 22 years has nothing to do with this current team and how successful it can be... the management is different, the players are different idk why people seem to think theres some sort of correlation to history just because its the same team name from the same city. it has the same merit as saying the jays have world series history and therefore they have a better shot at winning the world series than anyone else.

[Latrell]

I'm not sure that's the reason he's not in the hall. His numbers certainly aren't a no-brainer even playing in the juiced ball era and he shouldn't be there ahead of Jeff Bagwell, who never played in Canada, or the criminally underrated Tim Raines who probably fits your description better.

I was thinking about this earlier. At what point does the criteria for getting into the Hall change? Clearly guys aren't going to hit for those kinds of numbers again. So when deciding which players of this era are getting in, how does the criteria change and who are they compared to?

I'm sure it's organic but I find the generational change interesting in that it'll leave guys with clearly superior numbers on the outside looking in.

That's a good question. I think the baseball HOF will be forever tarnished because of all the great players who won't get in now I can see both sides of this debate but IMO if the hall is supposed to feature baseballs history then you can leave out Rose or ARod or Bonds or Clemens even though they're not great people and they all cheated. Heck even the suspects are getting penalized now. Gaylord Perry admits he used the spitter for years but he's still in there and Ty Cobb is a well known racist and all around jerk.

The tough part is drawing the line . I mean, I guess you have to draw a line somewhere right? I think most people would say so, but me personally , I don't care as much. I don't mix morals/ethics with sports,we cheer for logos worn on laundry..none of this s**t matters, i I'd take Ray Rice on my team if he produced TD's. If Jose Bautista had the personality of Ty Cobb would you want him off the Jays? I wouldn't. I might think less of him and not buy his jersey, but I'd still want him.Does it make me a bad person? Obviously you have to draw the line somewhere and you can't have Aaron Hernandezes running amok in pro sports, but I dunno, I still think we hold a lot of these guys to unrealistic moral standards.

Its a fascinating discussion.

[Santoki]

I was thinking about this earlier. At what point does the criteria for getting into the Hall change? Clearly guys aren't going to hit for those kinds of numbers again. So when deciding which players of this era are getting in, how does the criteria change and who are they compared to?

I'm sure it's organic but I find the generational change interesting in that it'll leave guys with clearly superior numbers on the outside looking in.

That's a good question. I think the baseball HOF will be forever tarnished because of all the great players who won't get in now I can see both sides of this debate but IMO if the hall is supposed to feature baseballs history then you can leave out Rose or ARod or Bonds or Clemens even though they're not great people and they all cheated. Heck even the suspects are getting penalized now. Gaylord Perry admits he used the spitter for years but he's still in there and Ty Cobb is a well known racist and all around jerk.

The tough part is drawing the line . I mean, I guess you have to draw a line somewhere right? I think most people would say so, but me personally , I don't care as much. I don't mix morals/ethics with sports,we cheer for logos worn on laundry..none of this s**t matters, i I'd take Ray Rice on my team if he produced TD's. If Jose Bautista had the personality of Ty Cobb would you want him off the Jays? I wouldn't. I might think less of him and not buy his jersey, but I'd still want him.Does it make me a bad person? Obviously you have to draw the line somewhere and you can't have Aaron Hernandezes running amok in pro sports, but I dunno, I still think we hold a lot of these guys to unrealistic moral standards.

Its a fascinating discussion.

I don't really care up to a point as well. The question was more aimed at statistics. If you say that Delgado's numbers in a juiced up era weren't good enough for the HOF, then when someone from this generation retires and doesn't have comparable numbers but was obviously a great player in this era, how will the voting go? Does it change organically? Who will be the first guy to get in that doesn't have those numbers that pop out compared to other eras but he was clearly one of the best of this or future generations?

[Boogie!]

wasn't listening but i assume wilner was talking about jung-ho kang's left leg getting massacred on a clean, hard break-up slide by chris coghlan. we thought losing our star SS for three weeks was bad, imagine how bucs fans are feeling right now with kang out for 6-8 months.

how long before they start banning take out slides?

just saw that video too, he wasnt even going for the base, kang was already off the basepath and the guy literally slid into his knee... that **** (Please Use More Appropriate Word) man... i understand trying to break up double plays and you dont see these freak injuries often, but i think there should be a rule here that if the defender is already OUT of the basepath you cant slide into him... i realize at times it might be hard to determine what being out of the basepath is, but yeah its (Please Use More Appropriate Word) when youre clearly not sliding into the bag and literally are sliding right into a player... dangerous too...

that's debatable as coghlan had already started his slide before kang led into him to get something extra on the throw. that's the cost of trying to turn two unfortunately, but also why the "neighbourhood play" exists. and as a runner with decent speed you pretty much have to slide once the 2B/SS catches the ball or good chance you get smoked by the throw to first, which is probably just as dangerous.

hard and early slides in the general area of 2B (as long as you can make contact with the base which coghlan was able to do) will never be outlawed because one player gets seriously hurt among the hundreds of broken-up double plays over the course of a season. double plays would be automatic in that case and then all of a sudden it's not baseball anymore with teams conceding two outs on one groundball. it's also the pivots responsibility to avoid the incoming slide but kang was turning that DP come hell or high water and just barely did, so respects to him.

im not opposed to sliding to break up double plays. but i watched it again and the the dude literally stuck his legs out of the basepath... like i said kang already cleared the base... he moved out of the path so he could get the throw off... the guy sliding basically intentionally scissor kicked him... its not like he just slid cleanly into the base where kang happened to be standing... if the exact same play happened to tulowitzki for example, we'd all be freaking out right now and calling for that guys head.

i mean if they can change the rules regarding blocking home plate, i dont see how changing the rules on intentionally tackling guys legs is out of the question.

[Boogie!]

again theres a difference between this:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhpuKsK_gk0[/youtube]

where he's really just sliding into the base aggressively...

and this:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEj7slTe7a4[/youtube]

where he goes sideways into him...

i guess youre right about kang not trying to avoid him at all and setting his feet on that throw, but my argument is that he was already way off the bag... its not like he was hovering over it and the guy just happened to slide into the bag and him in the process...

[Sifu]

Kang was about six feet off the bag. IMO that's a borderline dirty play, but hey its okay because its baseball right?

[s e n s i]

Kang was about six feet off the bag. IMO that's a borderline dirty play, but hey its okay because its baseball right?

he most certainly was not six feet off the bag




quite comparable to the pennington-donaldson DP turned in the 4th inning yesterday. granted bogaerts didn't make himself big and a slow runner hit the ball, but donaldson cleared himself from the bag by going wide to his left.

http://m.bluejays.mlb.com/tor/video/v488573183/bostor-stroman-wins-in-return-to-rogers-centre/?affiliateId=clubMEGAMENU

kang could have used the bag as protection or could have gone wide left like donaldson. he might not have gotten the out but as least his season wouldn't be over.

clint hurdle didn't seem to think it was a dirty play though fwiw.

[Sifu]

Actually I meant to say the leg that got taken out was six feet from the bag. That leg was actually further from the bag than the other.

It's not considered dirty in the context that the runner is still able to touch the bag, but not by much.

Put it another way - if the baserunner was upright running to second and was located at Kamg's left leg to avoid a tag, he would be called out for veering off the basepaths.

[Skin Blues]

It was a dirty and legal play. Change the rule so that takeout slides are no longer legal; problem solved. Seems to have worked well at home plate. I'd much rather watch Donaldson and Pillar come diving around the catcher than see them try to plow him over. And I'd rather see a guy who is out at second base jog back to the dugout rather than crash into the shortstop's legs. That should have no place in the game.