OT: Clemens implies Roy Halladay used amphetamines?

[cram]

If Tim Donaghy was an all-time great ref, should be be in the NBA hall of fame? Aren't he and Pete Rose basically the same?

Pete Rose would be inducted as a player. He didn't bet on the games in which he played.

He didn't?

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13114874/notebook-obtained-lines-shows-pete-rose-bet-baseball-player-1986

[PimpHandStrong]

If Tim Donaghy was an all-time great ref, should be be in the NBA hall of fame? Aren't he and Pete Rose basically the same?

Pete Rose would be inducted as a player. He didn't bet on the games in which he played.

He didn't?

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13114874/notebook-obtained-lines-shows-pete-rose-bet-baseball-player-1986

I was unaware. Thanks for the heads up.

[Randle McMurphy]

Looks like the doctor touched a nerve.

It wouldn't surprise me if they both used amphetamines considering the era in which they played. Not sure why anybody would actually care about that, though.

PED use matters to me because a lot of that stuff has pretty negative long-term side-effects. It should be possible for a clean individual to compete successfully at the highest level without endangering their future health (aside from the risk of concussion, torn meniscus from sprinkler heads, and other fluke events).

Not sure why I should care about what grown adults are putting into their bodies either. Don't we live in a society where people are allowed to drink and smoke as much as they want to their extreme detriment with side effects much worse than steroid use? If it's about caring about people's health, should we be banning alcohol and tobacco too while we're at it?

Ultimately it's a choice (valuing money over their health) and one that they should be allowed to make like everyone else. Baseball certainly isn't the only profession where people put their health at risk to get ahead.

[TONYROMOHOF]

Looks like the doctor touched a nerve.

It wouldn't surprise me if they both used amphetamines considering the era in which they played. Not sure why anybody would actually care about that, though.

PED use matters to me because a lot of that stuff has pretty negative long-term side-effects. It should be possible for a clean individual to compete successfully at the highest level without endangering their future health (aside from the risk of concussion, torn meniscus from sprinkler heads, and other fluke events).

Not sure why I should care about what grown adults are putting into their bodies either. Don't we live in a society where people are allowed to drink and smoke as much as they want to their extreme detriment with side effects much worse than steroid use? If it's about caring about people's health, should we be banning alcohol and tobacco too while we're at it?

Ultimately it's a choice and one that they should be allowed to make like everyone else. Baseball certainly isn't the only profession where people put their health at risk to get ahead.

Its about old white guys and muh babe ruth
The records are a religion to some
No other sport gives as much of a ****

[Randle McMurphy]

PED use matters to me because a lot of that stuff has pretty negative long-term side-effects. It should be possible for a clean individual to compete successfully at the highest level without endangering their future health (aside from the risk of concussion, torn meniscus from sprinkler heads, and other fluke events).

Not sure why I should care about what grown adults are putting into their bodies either. Don't we live in a society where people are allowed to drink and smoke as much as they want to their extreme detriment with side effects much worse than steroid use? If it's about caring about people's health, should we be banning alcohol and tobacco too while we're at it?

Ultimately it's a choice and one that they should be allowed to make like everyone else. Baseball certainly isn't the only profession where people put their health at risk to get ahead.

Its about old white guys and muh babe ruth
The records are a religion to some
No other sport gives as much of a ****

Hell, guys are quite literally dying playing football (mostly due to the incredible physicality of the game but abusing PEDs likely doesn't help). Should we be banning that sport in response? Of course not. NFL players have chosen money over their own long term personal health, which they have every right to do. Not sure why baseball players would be any different.

[The_Hater]

Roy shouldn't have said anything. I think it was classless. However Clemens still isn't smart enough to know when to STFU. Pretty weak comeback.

[Randle McMurphy]

Roy shouldn't have said anything. I think it was classless. However Clemens still isn't smart enough to know when to STFU. Pretty weak comeback.

Made even funnier when you consider Clemens was referring to the guy (McNamee) who he fought for years through the courts to say wasn't credible.

[Lateral Quicks]

Looks like the doctor touched a nerve.

It wouldn't surprise me if they both used amphetamines considering the era in which they played. Not sure why anybody would actually care about that, though.

PED use matters to me because a lot of that stuff has pretty negative long-term side-effects. It should be possible for a clean individual to compete successfully at the highest level without endangering their future health (aside from the risk of concussion, torn meniscus from sprinkler heads, and other fluke events).

Not sure why I should care about what grown adults are putting into their bodies either. Don't we live in a society where people are allowed to drink and smoke as much as they want to their extreme detriment with side effects much worse than steroid use? If it's about caring about people's health, should we be banning alcohol and tobacco too while we're at it?

Ultimately it's a choice (valuing money over their health) and one that they should be allowed to make like everyone else. Baseball certainly isn't the only profession where people put their health at risk to get ahead.

That's exactly my point. Young players shouldn't have to choose between long-term health and being competitive today. That's why PED use needs to be as strictly enforced as possible.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I don't disagree with you on principal, lateral, but the reality is that basically that's what careers do. How many guys working with concrete or chemicals of some sort are putting their long-term well-being at risk for immediate financial reward? How many guys taking uppers are there in executive jobs that almost never sleep who destroy their marriages by working long hours with poor hygiene/diets? And I haven't even touched off on the military or police or anything like that, to say nothing about football, like RM brought up. Hell, just playing hockey, basketball, football, soccer, running marathons, etc. all risk long term damage to joints, backs, brains, etc. even without PEDs or any other issues. The reality is that there is a certain element of health risk no matter what you do - some jobs come with more risks than others. Kids can absolutely play without risking their health. Does it lessen the chances they make it? Maybe. But that's no different than anybody else in any other field.

Why is one risk deemed not acceptable while others are? Hell, should we ban pitching above 50 mph in baseball because all these kids are risking TJ's surgery trying to make it? Drinking too much water can kill you and that link actually even mentions how about 1 in 6 marathon runners develop hyponatremia - dilution of the blood caused by drinking too much water. Ban marathons, or ban excess drinking of water, or both?

I'm not exactly pro or anti-ban, specifically, but it's a pretty significant grey area for anyone to be making moral judgements in - especially when the rules change significantly part-way through somebody's career. And to suggest that this is something new is just plain wrong. Loads of guys from those historical records were juicing and experimenting to find new ways to juice. My personal favourite example was Babe Ruth trying to inject himself with a concoction from sheep's testes - it didn't work, and actually made him sick, and the Yankees told the media he had a "bellyache" when he ultimately missed a game because of it.

[Lateral Quicks]

There is a difference between wear and tear due to exercise and age, and significant health problems - and even premature death - due to PED use. I don't disagree that there is risk in every occupation (even sitting long hours can lead to health problems) but again, for me it's a matter of not taking unneccessary - and large - risks

The risks of playing contact sports are part of the sport itself - they're inescapable. PED use isn't part of the sport - or at least, shouldn't be necessary in order to compete at the highest levels in said sport.

[Fairview4Life]

I'd prefer guys be allowed to use HGH to recover from injuries, for example. Steroids to improve performance are a little iffier for me, but if Peyton Manning can recover from a broken neck faster with some drug like HGH, who are we to say no?

[Schad]

I'd prefer guys be allowed to use HGH to recover from injuries, for example. Steroids to improve performance are a little iffier for me, but if Peyton Manning can recover from a broken neck faster with some drug like HGH, who are we to say no?

Difficulty: HGH/steroids seem to cause increased head/jaw size. Manning's neck has enough strain as is keeping his oversized melon free from the ravages of gravity.

[dballislife]

stfu clemens, doc was one of the most professional class acts of our time, like a consistent top 5-10 starter in baseball each and every year

[Hoopstarr]

Yes. One is the greatest hitter of all time, who was also outstanding in the field and on the bases when he was younger. The other is one of the greatest pitchers of all time.

There are guys in the Hall of Fame who tarnished the world they lived in, not their careers, like Ty Cobb. There are guys who never had to play against black players, like Babe Ruth. There are guys who popped greenies every day, like Hank Aaron.

If the Hall of Fame is for the best baseball players of all time, then Bonds and Clemens should certainly be in.

Pete Rose was one of the best players of all time.....should he be in?

yes. and I hate him.

No way. This is where the red line is. Rose broke the single most important rule of baseball. It's beaten into players and plastered everywhere for them to see: you don't bet on the game. He did it and lied about it and continues to do so.

Edit: Some context
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/68854332/pete-rose-is-wrong-to-think-gambling-isnt-baseballs-biggest-problem

1. It's the No. 1 rule. When players walk into any clubhouse in any stadium in baseball, they see this rule: "Any player, umpire, or club official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared ineligible for one year. Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible." This has been the case for nearly 100 years, since the game was almost destroyed by a betting scandal. There are now rules posted in clubhouses about banned substances that cannot be taken. But they have only been there for the past decade, and a lifetime ban occurs after three offenses, not one.

[The_Hater]

stfu clemens, doc was one of the most professional class acts of our time, like a consistent top 5-10 starter in baseball each and every year

While I agree with the first part of your post, since Clemens had a better career than Doc I'm not sure what the 2nd part has to do with anything?

[Anatomize]

[Vine][/Vine]

Pretty much all elite athletes in all sports use PED's, it's part of the business. Being hard working, a good guy, etc has nothing to do with it and is completely unrelated.

I have absolutely no problem with it but we live in a society where you have to lie through your teeth about it because anyone that admits to it gets destroyed in the public eye. You have to appeal to the masses that need to believe all their heroes are full natty brah.

tl;dr Who cares.

.. and still I see no changes..