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ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20

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Re: ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20 

Post#61 » by -MetA4- » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:55 am

spykelee wrote:But that shouldn't matter at all. We don't need a full rebuild. But we do need a pointed and driven one. Donaldson, and tulo. One of Sanchez or stroman tossed into the latter probably. Estrada and change.

For me, I'd hang onto osuna, stro, travis, re sign happ. We need corner outfield help and some middle infield depth. Izturis available? Smh...


Nobody wants Tulo. Trading Sanchez after his injuries and general ineptitude this season would be pointless and stupid. Also, if you are rebuilding then why the hell would you re-sign Happ who turns 36 next season? He's the first one out in any rebuild as he's only here for 1 more season and he actually has value.
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Re: ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20 

Post#62 » by Schad » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:19 am

In terms of who to trade, I'd go with whatever fetches what we consider to be appropriate value or better. Stroman would probably be at the bottom of my list of players to shop, but I certainly wouldn't make him untouchable, especially for a comparable package to that fetched by Quintana.

Wouldn't end up trading everyone, but we aren't in a position to be picky, either. Our upper minors and payroll are such that this isn't going to be resolved in an offseason.
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Re: ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20 

Post#63 » by So_Fresh » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:19 am

dagger wrote:
So_Fresh wrote:This team desperately needs a shakeup. Trade someone. Make something happen. I haven't been this depressed/disappointed about a Toronto Blue Jays team in years.

Bolsinger the latest to go on the DL. I have never seen so many players go on the DL.. it's insane!


It doesn't need a shakeup. That would imply that there is a lot of good talent there. Rather, this is a bad team, for reasons we've neem enumerating for months. It needs a talent infusion, not a shuffling of the deck chairs.


there is good talent there, they are just underperforming this year for whatever reason.
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Re: ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20 

Post#64 » by Schad » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:26 am

So_Fresh wrote:there is good talent there, they are just underperforming this year for whatever reason.


Where are the iron-clad talents? Tulo, whose bat has been in decline for three seasons? Bautista, who is demonstrably not the player he once was? Morales, who last post a 2 fWAR season in 2009 and has varied between mediocre and (in 2014) one of/possibly the worst player in baseball? Pillar, who was carried by his defense and is now at the age when center fielders often decline sharply?

Donaldson will bounce back in all likelihood. After him among the underperformers, there's Travis if he stays healthy, and then a bunch of guys who are odds-on to not be good at baseball anymore.
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Re: ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20 

Post#65 » by dagger » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:34 am

Sanchez had a recurrence of his blister problem, so that ought to be the cherry on top of this shiat sundae of a season. Time for a major course change.
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Re: ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20 

Post#66 » by Schad » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:18 am

Apropos of not much, something has gone haywire with Fangraphs' playoff odds. We keep randomly swinging between a .550+ projected winning percentage and one in the mid/low .520s once or twice a day. After losing to the Red Sox, our odds shot up 10%.
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Re: ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20 

Post#67 » by Raps_Swingman » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:09 pm

Schad wrote:Apropos of not much, something has gone haywire with Fangraphs' playoff odds. We keep randomly swinging between a .550+ projected winning percentage and one in the mid/low .520s once or twice a day. After losing to the Red Sox, our odds shot up 10%.

Even the numbers don't make sense with this team. They really can't string any meaningful plays together to be anything more then a .500 team.
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Re: ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20 

Post#68 » by So_Fresh » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:16 pm

Schad wrote:
So_Fresh wrote:there is good talent there, they are just underperforming this year for whatever reason.


Where are the iron-clad talents? Tulo, whose bat has been in decline for three seasons? Bautista, who is demonstrably not the player he once was? Morales, who last post a 2 fWAR season in 2009 and has varied between mediocre and (in 2014) one of/possibly the worst player in baseball? Pillar, who was carried by his defense and is now at the age when center fielders often decline sharply?

Donaldson will bounce back in all likelihood. After him among the underperformers, there's Travis if he stays healthy, and then a bunch of guys who are odds-on to not be good at baseball anymore.


Schad with all due respect if this team was healthy and performing to their potential we'd be talking about a playoff run by now. I don't like making excuses but the injuries have played a factor in the 2017 Toronto Blue Jays, more so than the decline because of age and performance.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for a rebuilt and getting younger, but it is evident that this team has underformed through this season so far.
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Re: ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20 

Post#69 » by Skin Blues » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:11 pm

Schad wrote:Apropos of not much, something has gone haywire with Fangraphs' playoff odds. We keep randomly swinging between a .550+ projected winning percentage and one in the mid/low .520s once or twice a day. After losing to the Red Sox, our odds shot up 10%.

It adjusts based on remaining schedule, injuries, current projected remaining starts for each member of the rotation, etc. If Liriano, Archer and Severino all start on the same day, that removes one start from each of them and would increase our ROS W% since Liriano is our worst projected starter and he now has one less game in our remaining couple months. And after playing 4 games agaisnt the #1 team in the division, the remaining schedule necessarily becomes more favourable. The playoff odds won't go up solely because we lost a game. It may have been delayed input based on the win from the day before, or it might have been the day Pineda was replaced in the rotation with Luis Cessa and his 5+ projected ERA, or any number of things. It isn't instantaneous, changes roll in over time. The Yankees losing Pineda for the season increased our odds, and then when they traded for Frazier/Robertson/Kahnle they would decrease again, etc. It depends on when those changes are made in the database. It's not a simple pythagorean W/L record based on current season runs for and against, as most other systems use.
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Re: ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20 

Post#70 » by Schad » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:25 pm

Skin Blues wrote:
Schad wrote:Apropos of not much, something has gone haywire with Fangraphs' playoff odds. We keep randomly swinging between a .550+ projected winning percentage and one in the mid/low .520s once or twice a day. After losing to the Red Sox, our odds shot up 10%.

It adjusts based on remaining schedule, injuries, current projected remaining starts for each member of the rotation, etc. If Liriano, Archer and Severino all start on the same day, that removes one start from each of them and would increase our ROS W% since Liriano is our worst projected starter and he now has one less game in our remaining couple months. And after playing 4 games agaisnt the #1 team in the division, the remaining schedule necessarily becomes more favourable. The playoff odds won't go up solely because we lost a game. It may have been delayed input based on the win from the day before, or it might have been the day Pineda was replaced in the rotation with Luis Cessa and his 5+ projected ERA, or any number of things. It isn't instantaneous, changes roll in over time. The Yankees losing Pineda for the season increased our odds, and then when they traded for Frazier/Robertson/Kahnle they would decrease again, etc. It depends on when those changes are made in the database. It's not a simple pythagorean W/L record based on current season runs for and against, as most other systems use.


None of that explains a change of that magnitude, nor the fact that it's been happening several times a day for a few days now. I'm sure it's just a simple glitch, but it takes me a moment to process when we suddenly spike, only to crash again an hour later. That it mirrors the mood swings of Toronto sports fans is also kinda poetic.
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Re: ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20 

Post#71 » by Schad » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:30 pm

So_Fresh wrote:[
Schad with all due respect if this team was healthy and performing to their potential we'd be talking about a playoff run by now. I don't like making excuses but the injuries have played a factor in the 2017 Toronto Blue Jays, more so than the decline because of age and performance.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for a rebuilt and getting younger, but it is evident that this team has underformed through this season so far.


Our lineup has gotten pretty close to full health, with the exception of Travis, since late May/early June. They've posted an OPS that barely topped .700 from that point forward. Injuries have been a problem, but no. I just don't see any indication that we should be evaluating the past performance of old dudes as "their potential", because players aging out of their primes is just a fact of life.
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Re: ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20 

Post#72 » by dagger » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:19 pm

Schad wrote:
So_Fresh wrote:[
Schad with all due respect if this team was healthy and performing to their potential we'd be talking about a playoff run by now. I don't like making excuses but the injuries have played a factor in the 2017 Toronto Blue Jays, more so than the decline because of age and performance.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for a rebuilt and getting younger, but it is evident that this team has underformed through this season so far.


Our lineup has gotten pretty close to full health, with the exception of Travis, since late May/early June. They've posted an OPS that barely topped .700 from that point forward. Injuries have been a problem, but no. I just don't see any indication that we should be evaluating the past performance of old dudes as "their potential", because players aging out of their primes is just a fact of life.


And there is no reason to believe that next season would be as good as this. Sure, Donaldson might bounce back only because he's clearly fallen well below his current potential - he hasn't regressed that much. But Bautista, Tulo, Martin? They are what they appear to be now, with little prospect of revival.
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Re: ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20 

Post#73 » by Raps_Swingman » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:36 pm

The Liriano era might be close to over after that start today. ERA is now above 6 and he generally looks like a guy who can't throw strikes, even with Russ
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Re: ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20 

Post#74 » by dagger » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:36 pm

Lirano sucks again.
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Re: ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20 

Post#75 » by Schad » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:48 pm

Liriano versus Dog Fister...truly a battle for the ages. Or, like, three innings.
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Re: ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20 

Post#76 » by TOStateofMind » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:36 pm

Knowing the jays they'll get hot the last month and finish with a .500 record lol.
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Re: ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20 

Post#77 » by zilby » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:55 pm

Raps_Swingman wrote:The Liriano era might be close to over after that start today. ERA is now above 6 and he generally looks like a guy who can't throw strikes, even with Russ

Probably rides it out to the end of the season so that Shatkins doesn't have to throw assets just to replace him. No Point in this lost season. Sign a new SP in free agency and figure it out later, but DFA'ing him with basically negative backup plan is not particularly helpful.
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Re: ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20 

Post#78 » by So_Fresh » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:54 pm

someone do the next game thread. thanks.
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Re: ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20 

Post#79 » by Lateral Quicks » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:25 pm

Well, they're still playing .500 over the last 12 games. Problem is they need to be doing a lot better than that.

At full health I still think this is at least a .500 team. But full health is rare, and our depth sucks (thanks AA). Seeing Goins or Barney in the lineup everyday sucks. Seeing them both in there today sucks doubly.

If there's a chance to move Morales and his full salary - as was rumoured in yesterday's radio broadcast - we'd be idiots not to do it. He makes absolutely no sense on a team that isn't going for it.
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Re: ST: Blow Jays (42-49) vs Red Sux (52-41) in Boston, July 17-20 

Post#80 » by fouronesix22 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:27 am

made the series thread... onto cleveland who is struggling right now

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