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Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal

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Re: Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal 

Post#21 » by Schad » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:52 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:But circling back to the players, it's too bad they're all going to skate because that was a sh*tty, sh*tty thing to do. Got to give it to baseball. When they cheat, they go big. As such, the punishment still feels a little light to me. Maybe they could have barred the Astros from participating in a couple of free agencies, like they do in soccer.


MLBPA would never allow something similar to a transfer ban (would be a restraint of trade not permitted under the CBA), though that's an interesting idea. I suspect that, given the choice between an FA ban and the draft pick loss, the Astros would probably prefer the FA ban: they aren't huge players in FA, and will likely be even less so as their core gets more expensive, while those draft picks will have a significant impact on their ability to renew their talent base. Luhnow hugs his picks pretty tightly, which isn't surprising given that Houston's draft record has been stellar.
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Re: Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal 

Post#22 » by dagger » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:16 am

Flavio Volpe, head of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, is a baseball nerd who has a teenage son working hard at becoming a legit MLB prospect. I think his point about Altuve is most interesting

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Re: Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal 

Post#23 » by SharoneWright » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:34 am

what this means is that the future is not a "wild west" of sign stealing. you can't burn these guys now and then open everything up in 2 years.... and thank goodness. let's preserve the traditions that make the game great for longtime and future fans. mano a mano: the sun, the squint, the swing.
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Re: Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal 

Post#24 » by Schad » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:44 am

dagger wrote:Flavio Volpe, head of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, is a baseball nerd who has a teenage son working hard at becoming a legit MLB prospect. I think his point about Altuve is most interesting

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I'd imagine it's largely sample size. With just about any team, you can find a player that had drastic splits over 6-7 games, because baseball's highly variable. Houston's offense was pretty awful home and away in that series...they collectively hit .187/.271/.294, but their staff carried them.
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Re: Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal 

Post#25 » by Fairview4Life » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:51 am

All I know is those dummies with their man in white **** can blow it out their ass.
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Re: Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal 

Post#26 » by I_Like_Dirt » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:37 pm

dagger wrote:Flavio Volpe, head of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, is a baseball nerd who has a teenage son working hard at becoming a legit MLB prospect. I think his point about Altuve is most interesting

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The idea that the Dodgers and Yankees aren't pulling shenanigans of their own strikes me as highly unlikely.
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Re: Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal 

Post#27 » by Black Watch » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:47 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
dagger wrote:Flavio Volpe, head of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, is a baseball nerd who has a teenage son working hard at becoming a legit MLB prospect. I think his point about Altuve is most interesting

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The idea that the Dodgers and Yankees aren't pulling shenanigans of their own strikes me as highly unlikely.

Logan Morrison thinks you're right, the Dodgers and Yankees "used film to pick signs."

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Re: Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal 

Post#28 » by Fairview4Life » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:51 pm

What's the claim he's making? That teams went back over game film to figure out signs, and then runners could tip pitches? That's a little greasy I guess, but it's also pretty different then having a camera and operator and communications and banging trash cans or whatever to tip pitches in real time.
9. Similarly, IF THOU HAST SPENT the entire offseason predicting that thy team will stink, thou shalt not gloat, nor even be happy, shouldst thou turn out to be correct. Realistic analysis is fine, but be a fan first, a smug smarty-pants second.
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Re: Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal 

Post#29 » by Black Watch » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:05 pm

No, it's a more egregious use of technology, not unlike the fitbit scandal two and a half years ago. Specifically here he's reacting to the news yesterday, which dealt specifically with prohibited use of the replay room and cameras zooming in and all this in real time.
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Re: Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal 

Post#30 » by Fairview4Life » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:24 pm

Black Watch wrote:No, it's a more egregious use of technology, not unlike the fitbit scandal two and a half years ago. Specifically here he's reacting to the news yesterday, which dealt specifically with prohibited use of the replay room and cameras zooming in and all this in real time.


Ah, so he's saying that the Yankees and Dodgers did it all in real time too? Interesting! Especially since I think some Yankee clowns commented on the man in white stuff when it happened.

After the fact scouting and passing info to the team pregame seems completely legit to me, but using cameras during the games obviously doesn't.
9. Similarly, IF THOU HAST SPENT the entire offseason predicting that thy team will stink, thou shalt not gloat, nor even be happy, shouldst thou turn out to be correct. Realistic analysis is fine, but be a fan first, a smug smarty-pants second.
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Re: Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal 

Post#31 » by I_Like_Dirt » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:53 pm

Black Watch wrote:Logan Morrison thinks you're right, the Dodgers and Yankees "used film to pick signs."

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It's so obvious, though. Really, we're entering an age where these things are eventually going to be recorded whether teams do it or not so then you have to figure out if teams are accessing that information or not, and only the few incompetent teams aren't going to access it because it's going to be blindingly impossible to effectively police. This isn't unlike the steroid scandal only there's an even grayer area between what people say is okay and what they say isn't, you can't argue that players are harming their health doing it, and there is nothing so simple as a drug test to check for use.

This whole sun/sky/squint is a useful imaginary trope, not unlike the peaceful farmer who lives off the land, takes nothing from anybody and feeds the world. In reality, baseball, even sandlot baseball, has basically always been about people finding ways to gain an advantage before someone calls them on it (usually after they lose or while they're losing) and then the game devolves into a nonstop argument/fistfight over how one player was wronged by another. In that sense, I suppose that's a part of the game and nothing has really changed.
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Re: Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal 

Post#32 » by The_Hater » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:10 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:What's the claim he's making? That teams went back over game film to figure out signs, and then runners could tip pitches? That's a little greasy I guess, but it's also pretty different then having a camera and operator and communications and banging trash cans or whatever to tip pitches in real time.


What good does using video to figure out the signs from previous games do them if they don’t then employ that technology and know how to help their players in real time as well? It would have to be both right? The old video to figure out the sequences and patterns and the current video to relay the information to the batter
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Re: Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal 

Post#33 » by Fairview4Life » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:30 pm

The_Hater wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:What's the claim he's making? That teams went back over game film to figure out signs, and then runners could tip pitches? That's a little greasy I guess, but it's also pretty different then having a camera and operator and communications and banging trash cans or whatever to tip pitches in real time.


What good does using video to figure out the signs from previous games do them if they don’t then employ that technology and know how to help their players in real time as well? It would have to be both right? The old video to figure out the sequences and patterns and the current video to relay the information to the batter


I just meant scouting signs in previous games and having runners on second tip the pitches is different then if they are using a camera to tip every pitch.
9. Similarly, IF THOU HAST SPENT the entire offseason predicting that thy team will stink, thou shalt not gloat, nor even be happy, shouldst thou turn out to be correct. Realistic analysis is fine, but be a fan first, a smug smarty-pants second.
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Re: Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal 

Post#34 » by The_Hater » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:38 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:What's the claim he's making? That teams went back over game film to figure out signs, and then runners could tip pitches? That's a little greasy I guess, but it's also pretty different then having a camera and operator and communications and banging trash cans or whatever to tip pitches in real time.


What good does using video to figure out the signs from previous games do them if they don’t then employ that technology and know how to help their players in real time as well? It would have to be both right? The old video to figure out the sequences and patterns and the current video to relay the information to the batter


I just meant scouting signs in previous games and having runners on second tip the pitches is different then if they are using a camera to tip every pitch.


Good point.
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Re: Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal 

Post#35 » by YelloC » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:19 am

Schad wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:But circling back to the players, it's too bad they're all going to skate because that was a sh*tty, sh*tty thing to do. Got to give it to baseball. When they cheat, they go big. As such, the punishment still feels a little light to me. Maybe they could have barred the Astros from participating in a couple of free agencies, like they do in soccer.


MLBPA would never allow something similar to a transfer ban (would be a restraint of trade not permitted under the CBA), though that's an interesting idea. I suspect that, given the choice between an FA ban and the draft pick loss, the Astros would probably prefer the FA ban: they aren't huge players in FA, and will likely be even less so as their core gets more expensive, while those draft picks will have a significant impact on their ability to renew their talent base. Luhnow hugs his picks pretty tightly, which isn't surprising given that Houston's draft record has been stellar.

Maybe a bunch of the Astros players have been playing above their ceiling because of the extra info that was at their disposal due to cheating.
It would be nice if next season the come back down to earth and show who the really are.
It’ll be interesting to monitor as next season progresses.
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Re: Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal 

Post#36 » by dagger » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:54 am

Red Sox have fired Alex Cora. Not waiting for the other shoe to actually drop. It's called a mutual parting of the ways, much in the way that walking the plank is a mutual parting of the ways.

With Cora gone, will be interesting to see if Sox go deeper into restructuring. If they lose any draft picks, a rather thin farm system looks even weaker, while they haven't moved off the luxury tax yet with an aging and inadequate roster.
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Re: Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal 

Post#37 » by Black Watch » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:07 am

YelloC wrote:Maybe a bunch of the Astros players have been playing above their ceiling because of the extra info that was at their disposal due to cheating.
It would be nice if next season the come back down to earth and show who the really are.
It’ll be interesting to monitor as next season progresses.

Since they were signalling offspeed pitches, which more often than not end up outside of the strike zone, their OBP went up much more than their SLG.
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Re: Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal 

Post#38 » by Black Watch » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:09 am

dagger wrote:Red Sox have fired Alex Cora... It's called a mutual parting of the ways, much in the way that walking the plank is a mutual parting of the ways.

:lol:

dagger wrote:With Cora gone, will be interesting to see if Sox go deeper into restructuring. If they lose any draft picks, a rather thin farm system looks even weaker, while they haven't moved off the luxury tax yet with an aging and inadequate roster.

Oh, God, I **** —ing hope so!
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Re: Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal 

Post#39 » by Black Watch » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:14 am

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
Black Watch wrote:Logan Morrison thinks you're right, the Dodgers and Yankees "used film to pick signs."

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It's so obvious, though. Really, we're entering an age where these things are eventually going to be recorded whether teams do it or not so then you have to figure out if teams are accessing that information or not, and only the few incompetent teams aren't going to access it because it's going to be blindingly impossible to effectively police. This isn't unlike the steroid scandal only there's an even grayer area between what people say is okay and what they say isn't, you can't argue that players are harming their health doing it, and there is nothing so simple as a drug test to check for use.

This whole sun/sky/squint is a useful imaginary trope, not unlike the peaceful farmer who lives off the land, takes nothing from anybody and feeds the world. In reality, baseball, even sandlot baseball, has basically always been about people finding ways to gain an advantage before someone calls them on it (usually after they lose or while they're losing) and then the game devolves into a nonstop argument/fistfight over how one player was wronged by another. In that sense, I suppose that's a part of the game and nothing has really changed.

Huh?
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Re: Rosenthal: Astros to lose two 1st round picks, Luhnow, Hinch suspended for year for sign stealing scandal 

Post#40 » by Schad » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:14 am

I_Like_Dirt wrote:It's so obvious, though. Really, we're entering an age where these things are eventually going to be recorded whether teams do it or not so then you have to figure out if teams are accessing that information or not, and only the few incompetent teams aren't going to access it because it's going to be blindingly impossible to effectively police. This isn't unlike the steroid scandal only there's an even grayer area between what people say is okay and what they say isn't, you can't argue that players are harming their health doing it, and there is nothing so simple as a drug test to check for use.

This whole sun/sky/squint is a useful imaginary trope, not unlike the peaceful farmer who lives off the land, takes nothing from anybody and feeds the world. In reality, baseball, even sandlot baseball, has basically always been about people finding ways to gain an advantage before someone calls them on it (usually after they lose or while they're losing) and then the game devolves into a nonstop argument/fistfight over how one player was wronged by another. In that sense, I suppose that's a part of the game and nothing has really changed.


It shouldn't be that hard to police. Absolutely, every team can figure out what the signs are, but that doesn't mean that they have a way to transmit that information to the one person who actually needs it, the dude standing in a chalk box surrounded by nothing but officials and opposing players. The reason the Astros resorted to such a crude method is that there aren't a lot of great ways to convey that information, which is only available for a couple seconds prior to the ball being thrown, without drawing a whole lot of unwanted attention.

Beyond that, the penalties are now high enough that it probably isn't a rational play given that I'm guessing that the benefits, while absolutely real, aren't overwhelming. You can't really rely on omerta, because players are constantly moving on...you release the wrong RP with a 6.00 ERA and your odds of a lifetime ban from baseball look fairly good.
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