Shapiro vs. Anthopoulos (Build a Contender)

North_of_Border · Post #1 » by **North_of_Border** » Thu Sep 9, 2021 4:45 am

I was a fan of JP Richiardi. Early on in his tenure, he was Impressive. Looked like the Jays had their savior. But after years of building ad more building and more building. Nothing really came of it.

Then came Alex Anthopoulos. He was also impressive. Really had an eye on finding those hidden gems. Mostly as FAs and trades. His drafting was just okay in hindsight. Though overall he was finally the guy the Jays to take the next step. However look how long he tried and failed and failed and failed. Finally he got the job done, but by that time, the team was aging and the farm was sold sold sold. There was a short window. And when it was closing he walked away. Leaving behind a doomed Expensive old core and no young replacements in sight.

Then came Mark Shapiro and Atkins. These guys were unfairly treated by the fan base just because they were replacing the beloved Anthopoulos. But look how fast they got this team to the same level that Anthopoulos peaked out. And this is just the beginning. Arguably this is the better team. They set a timetable and met it. They promised to spend and they did it intelligently. They drafted better than Anthoupolos, we are just in the early stages. They also found some real good gems, just like Anthopoulos. Under Shapiro and Atkins, this team is built to sustain, not just flame out after a couple of runs. Thats the part I like here now

Post #2 » by **Schad** » Thu Sep 9, 2021 5:24 am

I'll leave this open for the moment, but I'm reeeeeeeeeealllllly unsure that we need to rehash the Shapiro vs AA thing for the 943rd time. Maybe I'm wrong!

Fairview4Life · Post #3 » by **Fairview4Life** » Thu Sep 9, 2021 10:35 am

Maybe it goes better without ratul.

Anyway, I still think the 15/16 Jays etc were a bit better than this team, not sure what the stats say and that might just be my 5 year old nostalgia. Still think the 15 Jays especially were the best team in baseball.

Ong_dynasty · Post #4 » by **Ong_dynasty** » Thu Sep 9, 2021 1:32 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:Maybe it goes better without ratul.

Anyway, I still think the 15/16 Jays etc were a bit better than this team, not sure what the stats say and that might just be my 5 year old nostalgia. Still think the 15 Jays especially were the best team in baseball.

I agree. I loved that team, but this team seems to have more that a 1 or 2 year window and still enough depth in the farm.
I think Shapiro and atkins may need to do that all in trade (which I think an aa is good at) but I think they are biding their time.

rarefind · Post #5 » by **rarefind** » Thu Sep 9, 2021 1:40 pm

I still don't understand the luster that the AA/Beeston era still has.

This team greatly underachieved under AA. In 2015 he made trades to bolster our team that no non-lame duck front office makes. I certainly won't poo-poo the results of adding Tulo and Price at the deadline but it was a big gamble for a team that arguably could have been in sell mode. I loved 2015 but I really don't think he makes such aggressive moves if he knows his job is intact the following year. Again, it worked out remarkably well but that was a tremendous gamble despite how our schedule lined up. We were 10 games under .500 when we traded for Tulo. We were still paying Tulo thru 2020 if memory serves me correctly.

AA's drafting record was mediocre at best. Seemed to be able to target guys in trades that were underachievers and got something more out of them in Toronto. Also, trading for Josh Donaldson is arguably the best trade this franchise has ever made.

AA is a good guy... it seems. That is what I valued about him. He unearthed our current face of the franchise which is probably his biggest legacy he leaves in this organization too. But to say that he had the midas touch would not be a fair assessment.

I wholeheartedly know that I am in the minority on this one. I would've personally have kept him around but he still had lots to prove IMO.

LBJKB24MJ23 · Post #6 » by **LBJKB24MJ23** » Thu Sep 9, 2021 1:44 pm

well as of right now, the Jays future looks a lot brighter with them on the cusp of being in the playoffs again vs the time with AA. AA was in the same spot, with a front-loaded minor league system but mortgaged them away for short term success.

Looking back, the Jays weren't world series contenders - they were outclassed by Kansas City and Cleveland, easily.

can't really tell what Shaktins has done as their time hasn't fully matured yet.

The_Hater · Post #7 » by **The_Hater** » Thu Sep 9, 2021 1:46 pm

This is it exactly. This is still a young team. More upside. Smaller contracts. Built for a 4-5 year window. Hopefully longer.

AA initially tried to build this type of team, didn’t really have a strong enough core in place snd then made the huge trade with Miami to bring in more talent and it just didn’t work out. Then 2-3 years later he saw another window and traded most of his young assets for high paid vets in order to maximize his chances. It worked this time and the 2015 team was very, very good but it was also the oldest team in MLB.

I have no regrets or criticism for AA taking the direction he did, but this team is in far better shape.

Fairview4Life · Post #8 » by **Fairview4Life** » Thu Sep 9, 2021 1:50 pm

LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:Looking back, the Jays weren't world series contenders - they were outclassed by Kansas City ...... easily.

That is absolutely nonsense.

The_Hater · Post #9 » by **The_Hater** » Thu Sep 9, 2021 1:51 pm

LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:well as of right now, the Jays future looks a lot brighter with them on the cusp of being in the playoffs again vs the time with AA. AA was in the same spot, with a front-loaded minor league system but mortgaged them away for short term success.

Looking back, the Jays weren't world series contenders - they were outclassed by Kansas City and Cleveland, easily.

can't really tell what Shaktins has done as their time hasn't fully matured yet.

That’s a poor take imo. Anyone that makes the playoffs can win the WS it just becomes a bigger crap shoot at that point compared to figuring out who is thr best team over 162 games. Losing in a small sample of 6 or 7 games doesn’t mean that you’ve been outclassed,

Fairview4Life · Post #10 » by **Fairview4Life** » Thu Sep 9, 2021 1:53 pm

BEN REVERE'S "STRIKEOUT" WAS A **** JOKE.

LBJKB24MJ23 · Post #11 » by **LBJKB24MJ23** » Thu Sep 9, 2021 1:55 pm

The_Hater wrote:
LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:well as of right now, the Jays future looks a lot brighter with them on the cusp of being in the playoffs again vs the time with AA. AA was in the same spot, with a front-loaded minor league system but mortgaged them away for short term success.

Looking back, the Jays weren't world series contenders - they were outclassed by Kansas City and Cleveland, easily.

can't really tell what Shaktins has done as their time hasn't fully matured yet.

That’s a poor take imo. Anyone that makes the playoffs can win the WS it just becomes a bigger crap shoot at that point compared to figuring out who is thr best team over 162 games. Losing in a small sample of 6 or 7 games doesn’t mean that you’ve been outclassed,

Fairview4Life wrote:
LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:Looking back, the Jays weren't world series contenders - they were outclassed by Kansas City ...... easily.

That is absolutely nonsense.

i was just sensing back in the day, they didn't have the "it" factor. thats just my opinion and take on those teams. i had that sense that they weren't good enough but thats just my opinion on it.

you guys can disagree with me. i'm just saying thats how i felt and thought, even as I went to those games. they were missing something but i can't put my finger on it.

The_Hater · Post #12 » by **The_Hater** » Thu Sep 9, 2021 2:31 pm

LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:well as of right now, the Jays future looks a lot brighter with them on the cusp of being in the playoffs again vs the time with AA. AA was in the same spot, with a front-loaded minor league system but mortgaged them away for short term success.

Looking back, the Jays weren't world series contenders - they were outclassed by Kansas City and Cleveland, easily.

can't really tell what Shaktins has done as their time hasn't fully matured yet.

That’s a poor take imo. Anyone that makes the playoffs can win the WS it just becomes a bigger crap shoot at that point compared to figuring out who is thr best team over 162 games. Losing in a small sample of 6 or 7 games doesn’t mean that you’ve been outclassed,
Fairview4Life wrote:
LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:Looking back, the Jays weren't world series contenders - they were outclassed by Kansas City ...... easily.

That is absolutely nonsense.

i was just sensing back in the day, they didn't have the "it" factor. thats just my opinion and take on those teams. i had that sense that they weren't good enough but thats just my opinion on it.

you guys can disagree with me. i'm just saying thats how i felt and thought, even as I went to those games. they were missing something but i can't put my finger on it.

What is ‘it’ factor. It’s just your rear view mirror perception of what happened because they lost.

Baseball is a game where the top teams win just 55-60% of the time, then you throw all the top teams in the playoffs together and it becomes very close to a 50-50 crapshoot for any single game. One bad pitching performance. One flukey hit. One poorly timed error. Any of these things could swing a short series. Against KC, this is exactly east happened. Goins didn’t field a ball he should have and we lost a game we should have won. Outclassed because of one play? Really?

Some fans want to put a greater meaning to these things so they can put the reason for a loss in one tidy little package, I just couldn’t disagree more strongly

LBJKB24MJ23 · Post #13 » by **LBJKB24MJ23** » Thu Sep 9, 2021 3:09 pm

The_Hater wrote:
LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
That’s a poor take imo. Anyone that makes the playoffs can win the WS it just becomes a bigger crap shoot at that point compared to figuring out who is thr best team over 162 games. Losing in a small sample of 6 or 7 games doesn’t mean that you’ve been outclassed,
Fairview4Life wrote:
That is absolutely nonsense.

i was just sensing back in the day, they didn't have the "it" factor. thats just my opinion and take on those teams. i had that sense that they weren't good enough but thats just my opinion on it.

you guys can disagree with me. i'm just saying thats how i felt and thought, even as I went to those games. they were missing something but i can't put my finger on it.

What is ‘it’ factor. It’s just your rear view mirror perception of what happened because they lost.

Baseball is a game where the top teams win just 55-60% of the time, then you throw all the top teams in the playoffs together and it becomes very close to a 50-50 crapshoot for any single game. One bad pitching performance. One flukey hit. One poorly timed error. Any of these things could swing a short series. Against KC, this is exactly east happened. Goins didn’t field a ball he should have and we lost a game we should have won. Outclassed because of one play? Really?

Some fans want to put a greater meaning to these things so they can put the reason for a loss in one tidy little package, I just couldn’t disagree more strongly

no, i'm just saying how I felt during that time. that they weren't good enough.

don't get me wrong, i had a hell of a time the first time around - riding that emotional rollercoaster - but the feeling was more sedated the second time around in the season afterwards - again, just telling you how i felt during that time.

like i said, you can disagree with me but i truly didn't think they were real world series contenders at the time. to each their own.

North_of_Border · Post #14 » by **North_of_Border** » Thu Sep 9, 2021 5:59 pm

I agree that when you are trying to contend you cant hold onto all your prospects. Most of them will amount to nothing, anyway, they are lottery tickets. But you got to sell smartly. AA just dumped top prospects.

Shapiro traded 2 top prospects recently, but they were for a youngish top rotation starter that is controlled for 2 season. They traded these prospects because they had depth. As is better infield prospects than Austin Martin and SWR was apparently falling down the depth charts. Compare that to what AA gave up for David Price, a half season rental. Neither prosppects amounted to much, but they were some of the top ranks we had.

Like mentioned, AA was just trying to save his career. If Toronto does not make that final run, AA would struggle to get another role again. He would be like JP Ricciardi after being let go by Toronto, as opposed to a highly sought after executive.

Fairview4Life · Post #15 » by **Fairview4Life** » Thu Sep 9, 2021 6:44 pm

I don't think AA was trying to save his career. The Jays had a really good team, despite the record, and everyone on this board thought we had a legit shot at the playoffs. I just think AA didn't want to waste an MVP year from Donaldson and another year of Jose and EE mashing.

Parataxis · Post #16 » by **Parataxis** » Thu Sep 9, 2021 6:59 pm

North_of_Border wrote:Like mentioned, AA was just trying to save his career. If Toronto does not make that final run, AA would struggle to get another role again. He would be like JP Ricciardi after being let go by Toronto, as opposed to a highly sought after executive.

I really don't quite understand this thinking. Does it require us to believe that the owners and management of baseball teams aren't paying any attention to things like farms, building, and cycles? That they're just looking at potential GMs and thinking 'Well, did they make the playoffs'?

Surely if an average fan can see that somebody stripped the cupboards, that ownership groups can see that too? (And likewise, if a GM is constrained, etc...)

Hoopstarr · Post #17 » by **Hoopstarr** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:30 am

By 2013 we were in a 20 year playoff drought. At that point if you're not gonna go for it at the first sign of daylight, then you might as well fold the franchise.

Raps in 4 · Post #18 » by **Raps in 4** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:37 am

Fairview4Life wrote:Maybe it goes better without ratul.

Anyway, I still think the 15/16 Jays etc were a bit better than this team, not sure what the stats say and that might just be my 5 year old nostalgia. Still think the 15 Jays especially were the best team in baseball.

The 2015 Jays finished the season +221. This team is +145. There is still time to pump up their run differential, but I don't see them catching up. That 2015 team was special.