Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson

[Schad]

[ apparently you havent been following Stroman this year and how good he is. You probably hating cause you don't like him as an individual.

Stroman is fundamentally the same pitcher this year as he was last. He's a solid second starter who, because he doesn't generate a tonne of strikeouts, is reliant on the defense behind him. That's not a bad thing, necessarily; Halladay was the same sort of contact-muffling pitcher, albeit quite a bit better. But Stroman isn't an ace: he got bad batted ball luck last year, and he's getting good batted ball luck this year. That happens with groundball pitchers.

[guvernator]

People think that just because AA used to overpay in trades, now the other teams will reciprocate.

[Cyrus]

As you wonder about the quality of Kay also remember that only 20% of all prospects traded at the deadline since 2013 have any major league impact anyway.

So we traded a sure thing with a year of control for a 20% shot at 103rd ranked talent. Lol.



https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/prospects-traded-at-deadline-rarely-make-big-league-impact/

The Happ for Drury trade sucked too.

Yeah. A YEAR OF CONTROL. One. A year in which we aren't going to be winning anyway. That year of control isn't worth much of anything to us.

Also, the thing about prospect rankings? They're liable to change quickly, particularly for players in the lower minors. I'm not head-over-heels for this return (the Kay part of it, primarily), but SWR is posting monstrous peripherals as an 18 year old in full season ball; there aren't a lot of prospects with his swing-and-miss stuff and control at that age. Dude has a FIP of 2.55...Pearson has a FIP of 2.55 in AA, for what it's worth. That he isn't cracking the top 100 is mostly a product of his level and smallish sample; if he does this next year, he will be very highly-regarded.

So do you like the deal? Considering what was rumored, no idea if there was any substance behind it.

[The_Hater]

This trade is really perplexing from the Mets perspective. What in the name of God are they doing?

I'd say more perplexing from the Jays perspective. I think we got fleeced. The Mets won this trade. Should have got more and better prospects in return for Stroman who is (arguably) one of the better starting pitchers in the Majors.

Again, keep in mind that there are two things that go into prospect rankings: pedigree and performance. With low-minors prospects who weren't top draft picks/big-money IFAs, there's usually some lag before they start cracking the rankings. The rankings are fundamentally conservative (even BA's, which often aren't conservative enough) when it comes to pop-up prospects...we see the same thing in the draft every year. We saw it most notably with another former Jays prospect, Noah Syndergaard, who had a tonne of helium and was a perfectly reasonable comp rounder, but was rated something like 150th.

As an example, Bo Bichette was a 2nd rounder, like SWR. He opened eyes as an 18 year old, in a small sample, by posting an OPS of 1.182 and looking very much like a pro hitter. He got rave reviews from most publications. He was not, however, rated in the top 100 by MLBPipeline, or Baseball America, or Baseball Prospectus. Yet at the same time, if someone had offered us a 23 year old 4th-starter type who was a fringe top 100, I'd imagine that we'd have turned the deal down. And with good reason.

I'm just pleased, with SWR at least, that we went for a piece that has a very high ceiling, rather than someone safer who was deemed to be close to the majors.

Stop trying to talk sense with the people that just want to yell and scream that any trade made is a clearly a bad one. Emotion, not common sense or logic rules their decision making process.

[JaysRule15]

Not exactly thrilled with this trade, but we could've done worse. Kay seems like a mid-rotation type who could make the team as soon as next season. More excited for Richardson. He's the best pitching prospect in the Mets system. Still kind of a boom or bust player, but the upside is there for him to be No. 2 guy. Kinda unrealistic to expect much more for just a year of Stroman.

[The_Hater]

Hate this trade for the jays

Gave up an ace for really nothing. This is crap!

Stroman isn’t an ace, unless you were sleeping through the entire 2018 season.

Both of these prospects are highly regarded.

Other than those 3 small details, excellent point.

LOL apparently you havent been following Stroman this year and how good he is. You probably hating cause you don't like him as an individual. Forget about the win and loss record cause this team can't score any runs. My grandmother (who is dead) could hit better than this sack of **** lineup Shatkins has put together. Just imagine if they did?? He'd be right at the top in wins in this leauge and a Cy Young candidate.

He’s had a good season, he was also horrible in 2018. When we discuss ace pitchers we don’t just get to look at the good and ignore the bad, sorry but it doesn’t work that way. Stroman, when we look at his full body of work is clearly not a so-called ace.

The rest of your post and just about everything else you’ve written should just be ignored imo. Which I will do going forward.

[Schad]

So do you like the deal? Considering what was rumored, no idea if there was any substance behind it.

I don't love it, but I'm not angry about it either. Was hoping we might see a bidding war, and I'm not terribly big on Kay who, despite being fairly-high ranked, has the "good but not dominating stuff, some command issues" label that terrifies me.

SWR is a real get, though. He has been dominating the Sally at 18, and has a rare combination of stuff and command. He's not a finished product -- as with many young prospects, it'll depend on whether he can refine a third offering -- but he's the sort of prospect who is a few months or a year of much the same from being totally off-limits. Or would be totally off-limits, if he wasn't with the Mets, where they'll trade anything for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

There's major risk there, of course. He's only 18 and hasn't faced anything beyond low-A hitters, but with risk comes reward. I'm happy to take that risk.

[polo007]

According to ESPN's Keith Law:

NL East prospect guide: Who to watch on the Braves, Nationals, Mets, Phillies and Marlins

6. Anthony Kay has a wider range of outcomes, throwing harder now, up to 96, showing an above-average curveball one outing, an above-average change in a different one, but rarely putting everything together in one start. This was his first year back from Tommy John surgery in 2016, which he needed shortly after he'd been badly overused by UConn in its conference tournament, and he tired as the year progressed. He could be a mid-rotation starter, but he still has bullpen risk depending on fastball command and where his offspeed pitches end up. His changeup was regularly his best pitch pre-surgery, often plus.

7. Simeon Woods-Richardson looked to me like a reach in the second round, but the former shortstop saw his stuff tick up after he started pitching full time in pro ball, hitting 97 with a plus curveball in the GCL, and he may still have room left to fill out on his athletic, 6-foot-3 frame. He was a young senior who won't turn 19 until September, and his delivery looks smooth enough for future command.

[polo007]

Read on Twitter

[Schad]

Also, if Woods-Richardson makes the majors, I believe that he'll have the largest nameplate of any Blue Jay in history. Right now, the honour belongs to Valerio de los Santos, who pitched 11.2 really **** innings for us over a decade ago, and thanks to the spaces had a nameplate that was 13 characters long (11 letters and two spaces). Woods-Richardson brings 15 letters and a hyphen to the table, absolutely crushing the competition.

[The_Hater]

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/news/marcus-stroman-trade-grades-mets-take-leap-of-faith-blue-jays-make-good-in-reported-deal/1bc5973jb4job12bdr0pc0hkkv

[Sanyo]

Stroman isn’t an ace, unless you were sleeping through the entire 2018 season.

Both of these prospects are highly regarded.

Other than those 3 small details, excellent point.

LOL apparently you havent been following Stroman this year and how good he is. You probably hating cause you don't like him as an individual. Forget about the win and loss record cause this team can't score any runs. My grandmother (who is dead) could hit better than this sack of **** lineup Shatkins has put together. Just imagine if they did?? He'd be right at the top in wins in this leauge and a Cy Young candidate.

He’s had a good season, he was also horrible in 2018. When we discuss ace pitchers we don’t just get to look at the good and ignore the bad, sorry but it doesn’t work that way. Stroman, when we look at his full body of work is clearly not a so-called ace.

The rest of your post and just about everything else you’ve written should just be ignored imo. Which I will do going forward.

Verlander also had a crappy sub 4 era season in his 4th year.. should we not call him an ace?

Stroman had one bad year and largely it was due to nagging injuries that were going on... he’s an ace whether you like it or not

[Scott Hall]

LOL apparently you havent been following Stroman this year and how good he is. You probably hating cause you don't like him as an individual. Forget about the win and loss record cause this team can't score any runs. My grandmother (who is dead) could hit better than this sack of **** lineup Shatkins has put together. Just imagine if they did?? He'd be right at the top in wins in this leauge and a Cy Young candidate.

He’s had a good season, he was also horrible in 2018. When we discuss ace pitchers we don’t just get to look at the good and ignore the bad, sorry but it doesn’t work that way. Stroman, when we look at his full body of work is clearly not a so-called ace.

The rest of your post and just about everything else you’ve written should just be ignored imo. Which I will do going forward.

Verlander also had a crappy sub 4 era season in his 4th year.. should we not call him an ace?

Stroman had one bad year and largely it was due to nagging injuries that were going on... he’s an ace whether you like it or not

Stroman an ace?

[So_Fresh]

Stroman isn’t an ace, unless you were sleeping through the entire 2018 season.

Both of these prospects are highly regarded.

Other than those 3 small details, excellent point.

LOL apparently you havent been following Stroman this year and how good he is. You probably hating cause you don't like him as an individual. Forget about the win and loss record cause this team can't score any runs. My grandmother (who is dead) could hit better than this sack of **** lineup Shatkins has put together. Just imagine if they did?? He'd be right at the top in wins in this leauge and a Cy Young candidate.

He’s had a good season, he was also horrible in 2018. When we discuss ace pitchers we don’t just get to look at the good and ignore the bad, sorry but it doesn’t work that way. Stroman, when we look at his full body of work is clearly not a so-called ace.

Nice try buddy. You forgot 2017. More good than bad here. He's an ace on any other team and I'd bet my left nut any team would take him and make him their ace and number one starter.

The rest of your post and just about everything else you’ve written should just be ignored imo. Which I will do going forward.

Please don't interrupt me while I'm ignoring you. I never enjoyed any of your posts anyways. You have nothing good to say and you are not knowledgeable. And as your name suggests you are a hater. Have a nice life buddy!

[Schad]

Verlander also had a crappy sub 4 era season in his 4th year.. should we not call him an ace?

Stroman had one bad year... he’s an ace whether you like it or not

ERA isn't a great measure, for that reason: it varies based on factors largely out of the control of the pitcher. FIP and WAR tend to be better metrics, because they have much more predictive value. Stroman's been worth about 3.5 fWAR per 200 innings pitched, which is absolutely good; it just isn't ace-quality. There's nothing wrong with being a #2 starter (a team with five of them has the best rotation in baseball), but he's a #2 starter.

[Cyrus]

Where do you think these two prospects slot in our system? in our top 10? Consideing Bo is up, and all our "big guys" are up.

[The_Hater]

LOL apparently you havent been following Stroman this year and how good he is. You probably hating cause you don't like him as an individual. Forget about the win and loss record cause this team can't score any runs. My grandmother (who is dead) could hit better than this sack of **** lineup Shatkins has put together. Just imagine if they did?? He'd be right at the top in wins in this leauge and a Cy Young candidate.

He’s had a good season, he was also horrible in 2018. When we discuss ace pitchers we don’t just get to look at the good and ignore the bad, sorry but it doesn’t work that way. Stroman, when we look at his full body of work is clearly not a so-called ace.

The rest of your post and just about everything else you’ve written should just be ignored imo. Which I will do going forward.

Verlander also had a crappy sub 4 era season in his 4th year.. should we not call him an ace?

Stroman had one bad year and largely it was due to nagging injuries that were going on... he’s an ace whether you like it or not

Did you just compare Stroman to Verlander? Come on, take 2 minutes and compare their careers.

Anyone calling Stro an ace is using a very loose description of the term. He was very good in 2019 and 2017. Very bad in 2018 and slightly below average in 2016. Add it all together and that makes him a 2/3 starter which is above average, but shouldn't be confused with a true ace.

[Schad]

Where do you think these two prospects slot in our system? in our top 10? Consideing Bo is up, and all our "big guys" are up.

Depends on whose rankings you're using. They'll be ranked between 5th and 9th in our system on Fangraphs' THE BOARD!, and Kay will slot in as our 3rd or 4th best prospect in MLBPipeline, while SWR will be 5th-14th (MLBPipeline's got a bit of grade inflation and uses a broader measure so the range is larger).

[gundysmullet]

We got the Mets top two pitching prospects. We probably could have got a higher ranked positional player but we NEED pitching prospects. We have no idea what other teams were offering but it was probably a pitching prospect + position prospect. The mindset was probably taking two lesser ranked pitching prospects (one almost in the top 100 and one that is coming up quickly) is better than getting one guy who is probably in the upper-half of the top 100.

I know it’s basketball, but I think it really applies in all sports; when in doubt always go best player available. Never draft or trade for need unless the needed player is a can’t miss prospect, neither of these guys are that.

[So_Fresh]

Verlander also had a crappy sub 4 era season in his 4th year.. should we not call him an ace?

Stroman had one bad year... he’s an ace whether you like it or not

ERA isn't a great measure, for that reason: it varies based on factors largely out of the control of the pitcher. FIP and WAR tend to be better metrics, because they have much more predictive value. Stroman's been worth about 3.5 fWAR per 200 innings pitched, which is absolutely good;it just isn't ace-quality. There's nothing wrong with being a #2 starter (a team with five of them has the best rotation in baseball), but he's a #2 starter.

I guess the sports media news disagrees with you and so do I. Stroman is an ace quality pitcher and on most teams he is a #1 starter.

Blue Jays trade ace Marcus Stroman to Mets | The Star
https://www.thestar.com/sports/bluejays/2019/07/28/report-blue-jays-trade-ace-marcus-stroman-to-mets.html

Report: Jays trade ace Stroman to Mets for pitching prospects - TSN
https://www.tsn.ca/report-toronto-blue-jays-trade-marcus-stroman-to-mets-1.1343450

Mets close to acquiring ace Marcus Stroman in trade deal with Toronto ...
https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/ny-marcus-stroman-toronto-blue-jays-trade-20190728-i6rvog2mnffezj2me7vbuav3hm-story.html

Report: Blue Jays trade ace Marcus Stroman to Mets ...
https://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/sports-story/9524041-report-blue-jays-trade-ace-marcus-stroman-to-mets/