Varsho/Moreno/Kirk Discussion Thread

[Mehar]

Ah yes, lessons on defense from the guy who said Varsho wasn't a CF, wasn't the most valuable defensive OF and would be non-tendered despite being a top 15 player in baseball in 2024. I wonder what brand of bad faith arguments we'll get next season in an attempt to save face here as Varsho continues to badly outperform Moreno yet again.

Top 15 player in baseball? Lmao. He is top 15 on the Jays, I'll grant you that.

Varsho is another Chapman. All kinds of WAR except when he's not in the lineup you barely notice.

Once a few games ago there was a ball Lukes didn't reach where I figured Varsho probably would have caught it. Then a game later Kirk couldn't score from a double or a fly ball at sac depth, so there's that too.

Varsho is a welcome addition to the team, I like having him. But he's a #9 guy on a WS team that fills his role well. KK, basically, who I might add maintained his outstanding dWAR for about 3 seasons in his prime before falling back to normalcy.

He's not a top 15 player, nor is it fair to him to attribute that type of expectation.

A player who was hitting around .200 for most of the year, along with an atrocious OPS below .700 (except for about a two week span in August), does not yell out "Top 15 MLB Player". A final stat line of a .214 BA, .700 OPS, .407 SLG, .293 On Base does not yell out Top 15 Player. I guess the meaning of a Top 15 Player has changed nowadays according to his Fanboys. Varsho is absolutely a #9 Guy on a WS team. Any player with his hitting numbers should be hitting 9th.

Kevin Kiermaier had a .265 BA, .741 OPS, .419 SLG, and .322 On Base in 2023 (all much better than the 2024 Hitting Numbers of Varsho), along with winning the Gold Glove in 2023. I guess he should be also called a Top 15 Player in 2023. Absolutely ridiculous what the Varsho fanatics are now saying. Comedy Central at its finest. Nobody is denying Varsho's excellent defense. But his defense alone does not translate into him being a Top 15 MLB Player.

[Randle McMurphy]

Ah yes, lessons on defense from the guy who said Varsho wasn't a CF, wasn't the most valuable defensive OF and would be non-tendered despite being a top 15 player in baseball in 2024. I wonder what brand of bad faith arguments we'll get next season in an attempt to save face here as Varsho continues to badly outperform Moreno yet again.

Top 15 player in baseball? Lmao. He is top 15 on the Jays, I'll grant you that.

Varsho is another Chapman. All kinds of WAR except when he's not in the lineup you barely notice.

Once a few games ago there was a ball Lukes didn't reach where I figured Varsho probably would have caught it. Then a game later Kirk couldn't score from a double or a fly ball at sac depth, so there's that too.

Varsho is a welcome addition to the team, I like having him. But he's a #9 guy on a WS team that fills his role well. KK, basically, who I might add maintained his outstanding dWAR for about 3 seasons in his prime before falling back to normalcy.

He's not a top 15 player, nor is it fair to him to attribute that type of expectation.

A player who was hitting around .200 for most of the year, along with an atrocious OPS below .700 (except for about a two week span in August), does not yell out "Top 15 MLB Player". A final stat line of a .214 BA, .700 OPS, .407 SLG, .293 On Base does not yell out Top 15 Player. I guess the meaning of a Top 15 Player has changed nowadays according to his Fanboys. Varsho is absolutely a #9 Guy on a WS team. Any player with his hitting numbers should be hitting 9th.

Kevin Kiermaier had a .265 BA, .741 OPS, .419 SLG, and .322 On Base in 2023 (all much better than the 2024 Hitting Numbers of Varsho), along with winning the Gold Glove in 2023. I guess he should be also called a Top 15 Player in 2023. Absolutely ridiculous what the Varsho fanatics are now saying. Comedy Central at its finest. Nobody is denying Varsho's excellent defense. But his defense alone does not translate into him being a Top 15 MLB Player.

Read on Twitter

?

[Mehar]

What Litmus test? That both Kirk and Varsho greatly underperformed at the plate once again in 2024. Your Top 5 Catcher Kirk was anything but this year, and Varsho was a Mendoza Level hitter for majority of the year. Absolutely comical what the Varsho fanatics spew out, calling him a Top 15 MLB player. I love Varsho's defense, just like Kiermaier's defense last year. Based on the numbers, I guess Kiermaier was also a Top 15 MLB player in 2023? Since as I mentioned above, Kiermaier's hitting numbers were all much better than Varsho's 2024 numbers. Plus Kiermaier won the Gold Glove in 2023.

Like I mentioned previously, WAR is not the be all and end all, since it is heavily reliant on defense. Matt Chapman has the 7th highest WAR in MLB right now at 6.8 (higher than excellent 30 home run hitters like Vlad, Yordan Alvarez, Marte, and Lindor right now). Which GM would take Chapman over those guys because he has a higher WAR? Varsho has the 23rd highest WAR right now at 4.9, so I am not even sure how that translates him into being a Top 15 MLB player. Completely delusional to call him a Top 15 MLB player based on his hitting numbers.

[s e n s i]

Like I mentioned previously, WAR is not the be all and end all, since it is heavily reliant on defense.

then why did you reference WAR in seemingly every other post when talking about gabriel moreno last season? the stat suddenly doesn’t suit your agenda after his completely mediocre season in that category so now you’re undervaluing it because it’s “heavily reliant on defense”. how often are you going to contradict yourself in this very thread?

[Mehar]

Like I mentioned previously, WAR is not the be all and end all, since it is heavily reliant on defense.

then why did you reference WAR in seemingly every other post when talking about gabriel moreno last season? the stat suddenly doesn’t suit your agenda after his completely mediocre season in that category so now you’re undervaluing it because it’s “heavily reliant on defense”. how often are you going to contradict yourself in this very thread?

I think you need to work on your Reading Comprehension. I specifically talked about "Defensive WAR" to talk about Moreno's defense. He was Number 1 in Defensive WAR last year in all of MLB, and won the Gold Glove as a 23 year old Rookie. If you want to judge Defense, that to me is still a Stat that is relevant. Unfortunately, you cannot understand that fact.

Same with offense- I use Offensive WAR, along with stats like OPS, On Base, etc. Answer my question- on what planet is Varsho a Top 15 MLB player based on his WAR alone this year? (not defensive or offensive WAR). He is 23rd in WAR right now, but his fanboys are calling him a Top 15 MLB player based on his mediocre hitting stats. His fanboys are comical. I love Varsho's defense also. Never criticized his defense. But to call him a Top 15 MLB player is a joke, based on stats like WAR (where he ranks 23 right now).

[s e n s i]

23rd in WAR in all of MLB sounds pretty good man

[Fairview4Life]

Like I mentioned previously, WAR is not the be all and end all, since it is heavily reliant on defense.

then why did you reference WAR in seemingly every other post when talking about gabriel moreno last season? the stat suddenly doesn’t suit your agenda after his completely mediocre season in that category so now you’re undervaluing it because it’s “heavily reliant on defense”. how often are you going to contradict yourself in this very thread?

I think you need to work on your Reading Comprehension. I specifically talked about "Defensive WAR" to talk about Moreno's defense. He was Number 1 in Defensive WAR last year in all of MLB, and won the Gold Glove as a 23 year old Rookie. If you want to judge Defense, that to me is still a Stat that is relevant. Unfortunately, you cannot understand that fact.

Same with offense- I use Offensive WAR, along with stats like OPS, On Base, etc. Answer my question- on what planet is Varsho a Top 15 MLB player based on his WAR alone this year? (not defensive or offensive WAR). He is 23rd in WAR right now, but his fanboys are calling him a Top 15 MLB player based on his mediocre hitting stats. His fanboys are comical. I love Varsho's defense also. Never criticized his defense. But to call him a Top 15 MLB player is a joke, based on stats like WAR (where he ranks 23 right now).

Did you ever reconsider Morenos defensive war value from last season after having it broken down for you and shown that his numbers were being heavily weighted by Arizonas pitcher era which hasn’t been demonstrated to be repeatable or all that indicative of a catchers defensive value? Which is why his defensive war this season came back down to earth? He’s a good defensive player but his defensive value last season was not “best defensive player in baseball” level. Unlike Varsho, who saved significantly more runs than everyone else.

[bartron_44]

Don’t get it twisted. Moreno was still the best defensive catcher and elite at throwing out base runners. On top of getting the most out of that staff. Its not like he won the GG just because of his RIDICULOUS pitchers ERA. (Which I dont think he should get blamed for somehow to try and discredit how good he is) He was elite in other areas as well. Their staff has been better this year, but he has had a terrible year throwing out base runners. If he played another 20 games though, his cs total should be pretty close to 2023. Just a few more successes.

His team is still going to win 90+ games though with a great shot at the postseason , and he is still posting a .740 OPS.


It will be interesting to see if Kirk can repeat this season’s performance throwing runners out . The throwing program worked. Hopefully he keeps it up!!

[Mehar]

23rd in WAR in all of MLB sounds pretty good man

Like I said earlier, that does not make him a Top 15 MLB player like his fans suggest. If Varsho is a Top 15 MLB player, then it would not be ridiculous to say that Matt Chapman is a Top 5 MLB Player in 2024 (which he is not), because he has a 6.9 WAR which is higher than Vlad, Lindor, Marte, and Alvarez. Meanwhile Chapman is hitting .247 for the year and a .777 OPS right now, and his hitting numbers are nowhere near elite as the other guys that are mentioned.

You simply cannot rely on one statistic called WAR, and then make your judgements on who is the better player. You need to factor other stats like OPS, On Base, etc. To look strictly at a player's defensive performance, I can understand relying on Defensive WAR, or even using Offensive WAR to judge the offensive production of certain players. However, to evaluate two different players looking strictly at WAR to see who is better is laughable. How many GM's would trade Matt Chapman for Vlad, Lindor, Marte, or Alvarez? The answer is Zero.

[bartron_44]

Could Vladdy slide back to 3B next year to maximize his value on the FA market? Can you imagine what his WAR would be this year if he played 3B everyday this year instead of mostly 1B?

[Harry Palmer]

Could Vladdy slide back to 3B next year to maximize his value on the FA market? Can you imagine what his WAR would be this year if he played 3B everyday this year instead of mostly 1B?

Supposedly he hates playing first, has fairly regularly been asking to move back to third. Dunno how true that is, though.

[s e n s i]

Read on Twitter

but people will still complain that we traded light-hitting gabbie for a 5 WAR player and the best defensive outfielder in baseball, a player that these same people actively hope to fail despite playing for the team they support. will never understand this.

[Randle McMurphy]

Got a top 15 player in baseball out of the deal while retaining a top 3 catcher. Two years on and that's a clear win.

[Mehar]

Got a top 15 player in baseball out of the deal while retaining a top 3 catcher. Two years on and that's a clear win.

Respectfully, I ask you on what planet is Varsho a Top 15 Player, who for 4 months was struggling to hit .200 at the plate? You are describing Varsho like he is a Juan Soto type player. I guess hitting .174 in the month of May, .190 in the month of June, .197 in the month of July, and .148 in the month of September (before he got shut down due to injury) is now considered Top 15 according to you. Varsho's OPS was also atrocious in most of those months (OPS well below .700).

Varsho had a solid two weeks in August and April (resulting him in thankfully hitting over well .200 in those months with a final 2024 stat line of a .214 BA, .700 OPS, .407 SLG, .293 On Base). These numbers are still horrible and definitely not Top 15. You are entitled to your opinions, but not your facts. I am not a big proponent of WAR to judge players, but regardless Varsho currently sits 24th in MLB in WAR. So how does that translate into him being a Top 15 Player in MLB?

I am willing to listen to your facts that highlight how Varsho is a Top 15 Player. Please present them when you have the time to do so. Top 15 Players that show up to the All-Star game, do not have atrocious hitting numbers like your 5 foot 8 hero Varsho. You can present all the WAR statistics you want, but if your are hitting around .200 for most of the year with a horrible OPS and On Base, you are not a Top 15 player regardless if you provide great defense in the outfield. We all love Varsho's great defense, but that does not make him a Top 15 MLB Player. I guess by your logic, Kevin Kiermaier was a Top 15 Player in MLB in 2023. Kevin Kiermaier had a .265 BA, .741 OPS, .419 SLG, and .322 On Base in 2023 (all much better than the 2024 garbage Hitting Numbers of Varsho), along with winning the Gold Glove in 2023. I guess he should be also called a Top 15 Player in 2023.

I guess also by your logic, we can also call Matt Chapman a Top 10 MLB player in 2024, and a better player than 30 Home Run guys like Vlad, Lindor, Marte, and Yordan Alvarez since he has a higher WAR than them (7.2 WAR for Chapman); despite Chapman being a much inferior hitter than all of these guys, who were all excellent hitters in 2024. How many GM's would not trade Chapman for Vlad, Lindor, Marte or Alvarez? The answer is Zero. But maybe you would disagree, since the only stats that matter to you are WAR. I am willing to listen to your arguments though about Varsho being a Top 15 Player. Let me hear them when you have that compelling evidence about Varsho being a Top 15 MLB Player, that apparently I and many others are not smart enough to see.

[duppyy]

I wonder how long this thread will go

[Randle McMurphy]

Read on Twitter

Won't have to get daily October posts this year in this thread talking about how that fraud Moreno is a future HOFer and the next Buster Posey because he hit a few singles during a playoff game. That's something at least.

[ItsDanger]

Arizona just barely missed the playoffs.

Varsho top 15 player? LMAO. C'mon this is ridiculous at this point. The whole support is that garbage stat.

[Raps in 4]

Got a top 15 player in baseball out of the deal while retaining a top 3 catcher. Two years on and that's a clear win.

Varsho was ranked 85th in fWAR this year.

I can't check bWAR since they paywalled all their sortable stats, but I suspect he isn't top-15 there either.

The last time Varsho was even remotely close to being a top-15 player was in 2022 (when he was still with Arizona). He hasn't come close to that production in either of his two seasons with the Jays.

[Mehar]

Arizona just barely missed the playoffs.

Varsho top 15 player? LMAO. C'mon this is ridiculous at this point. The whole support is that garbage stat.

Arizona missed Moreno for nearly 6 weeks in August, after he was one of the better hitters in the NL in the month of July, and Gurriel missed three weeks in September. Their manager just said last week that having those two on the injured list for extended times unfortunately messed up their season.

Gurriel still had a solid year overall, and Moreno ended up with a higher OPS than Kirk and the Top 15 Superstar Varsho. If Atkins would call up Arizona this off-season, and offered them Varsho for Gurriel and Moreno, Arizona would laugh and hang up the phone in seconds. In fairness to Randle, Varsho is a Top 15 MLB player if you ignore all the hitting and on base statistics.

[Raps in 4]

Arizona just barely missed the playoffs.

Varsho top 15 player? LMAO. C'mon this is ridiculous at this point. The whole support is that garbage stat.

Arizona missed Moreno for nearly 6 weeks in August, after he was one of the better hitters in the NL in the month of July, and Gurriel missed three weeks in September. Their manager just said last week that having those two on the injured list for extended times unfortunately messed up their season.

Gurriel still had a solid year overall, and Moreno ended up with a higher OPS than Kirk and the Top 15 Superstar Varsho. If Atkins would call up Arizona this off-season, and offered them Varsho for Gurriel and Moreno, Arizona would laugh and hang up the phone in seconds. In fairness to Randle, Varsho is a Top 15 MLB player if you ignore all the hitting and on base statistics.

Varsho was almost a league average hitter this year!