Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson

[ratul]

Can Shatkins be fired at the end of the season? I mean, do we have to wait until the contracts are up? Let’s get rid of these pieces of trash and start interviewing! Maybe Masai has a baseball guru relative?

[polo007]

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[gundysmullet]

Bad blood or no bad blood, it just made sense to trade Stroman based on where he is in his contract and where we are in our rebuild.

I agree but the inconsistency from Shatkins is what is extremely frustrating because the exact same reason that you gave for trading Stroman should’ve been applied to Grichuk, yet they extended him for no reason whatsoever. There’s not a consistency across the board in what they do.

[The_Hater]

I know it’s basketball, but I think it really applies in all sports; when in doubt always go best player available. Never draft or trade for need unless the needed player is a can’t miss prospect, neither of these guys are that.

Comparing the NBA and the MLB regarding team building strategies is ridiculous for far too many reasons to list in one night.

You're correct that the BPA usually works in basketball while the exact opposite is more often than not the best direction in baseball. The examples of this are countless, look no further than the Jays trading Syndergaard and D'Araund as prospects for Cy Young winner RA Dickey.

Doesn’t your example contradict the point that you’re trying to make? The trade worked out for all parties involved and Travis D actually had a Renaissance the season.

That trade worked out much better for the Mets than the Jays, that isn’t even debatable.

[gundysmullet]

Comparing the NBA and the MLB regarding team building strategies is ridiculous for far too many reasons to list in one night.

You're correct that the BPA usually works in basketball while the exact opposite is more often than not the best direction in baseball. The examples of this are countless, look no further than the Jays trading Syndergaard and D'Araund as prospects for Cy Young winner RA Dickey.

Doesn’t your example contradict the point that you’re trying to make? The trade worked out for all parties involved and Travis D actually had a Renaissance the season.

That trade worked out much better for the Mets than the Jays, that isn’t even debatable.

Context is key, I mean what was each team trying to accomplish? And did they?

[vaff87]

After the trade, MLB Pipeline dropped Kay to a 50 FV and put him below Manoah. He’s 5th and SWR is 7th in our system.

[Schad]

Context is key, I mean what was each team trying to accomplish? And did they?

Question is: did Dickey play a particularly meaningful role in helping us accomplish anything? In 2015, when he was okay (but below-average) Syndergaard was much better. In 2016, when Dickey was pretty bad, Syndergaard was one of the best pitchers in baseball. At every step, we'd have been better off with Syndergaard than Dickey.

[polo007]

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[The_Hater]

Verlander also had a crappy sub 4 era season in his 4th year.. should we not call him an ace?

Stroman had one bad year and largely it was due to nagging injuries that were going on... he’s an ace whether you like it or not

Did you just compare Stroman to Verlander? Come on, take 2 minutes and compare their careers.

Anyone calling Stro an ace is using a very loose description of the term. He was very good in 2019 and 2017. Very bad in 2018 and slightly below average in 2016. Add it all together and that makes him a 2/3 starter which is above average, but shouldn't be confused with a true ace.

Im not comparing Stro to Verlander, I just said some guys can have down years for various years. Storman had a down year last year cause of various injuries.. its hard to say trajectory since Storman is still 28 so who knows the next 10 years where he goes.

It's clear Stro and the Jays had bad blood so he had to go but man could have gotten someone a little better than Kay. How long do we rebuild? By the time we get ready to compete guys like Vlad are gonna demand Harper like money... and we are back to square one.

I think next year we could start at least being competitive...

We’re in the middle of a rebuild and it takes as long as it takes, but the rebuild wasn’t going to end in 2020 which is when Stroman’s contract ends.

And Stroman is a good pitcher, but that doesn’t mean the best course of action is to keep him. If he has another solid season, he’ll probably command a contract of $18-20 million per season starting in 2021 and will sign with the highest bidder. And if signs a similar extension with the Jays but he fades badly or regresses with injuries next season, then the Jays will have overpaid a year ahead of time for an unreliable starter. Trading him is just the direction that smart rebuilding teams generally take. Taking shortcuts and trying to compete with vets and rebuild, like Ownership forced management to do in 2017-18, rarely works. And all it did here was slow down the current rebuild.

[JaysRule15]

After the trade, MLB Pipeline dropped Kay to a 50 FV and put him below Manoah. He’s 5th and SWR is 7th in our system.

What's the twitter of the guy who runs that ****?

I'm going in

[gundysmullet]

Context is key, I mean what was each team trying to accomplish? And did they?

Question is: did Dickey play a particularly meaningful role in helping us accomplish anything? In 2015, when he was okay (but below-average) Syndergaard was much better. In 2016, when Dickey was pretty bad, Syndergaard was one of the best pitchers in baseball. At every step, we'd have been better off with Syndergaard than Dickey.

Was it just Dickey though, I thought they got some other players but I could be wrong. And besides I don’t even know how that trade became part of the discussion, my point was that best player available is almost always the way to go whether it’s a trade or draft, I think the other posters argument was that Dickey was the best player available but I don’t agree with that premise.

[vaff87]

After the trade, MLB Pipeline dropped Kay to a 50 FV and put him below Manoah. He’s 5th and SWR is 7th in our system.

What's the twitter of the guy who runs that ****?

I'm going in

Not sure. I think it’s run by Jim Callis, Jonathan Mayo and maybe a couple of others. I think it’s a collaborated list, but I could be wrong.

[Schad]

Was it just Dickey though, I thought they got some other players but I could be wrong

I mean, we got Thole in that trade as well, but no one else meaningful.

[The_Hater]

Doesn’t your example contradict the point that you’re trying to make? The trade worked out for all parties involved and Travis D actually had a Renaissance the season.

That trade worked out much better for the Mets than the Jays, that isn’t even debatable.

Context is key, I mean what was each team trying to accomplish? And did they?

Not that Dickey was terrible, he was right around league average as a starter in Toronto, but obviously we would have been much better off with Syndergaard. Dickey wasn’t even on the Jays playoff roster in 2016, the same season Syndergaard was a 23 year old allstar. And D’Araoud was a solid, starting catcher for most of his Mets years. Even with the injuries.

I won’t even get into the collateral damage this trade caused but I, and likely 98% of Jays fans, would strongly disagree with your assessment here. This was the shining example of a terrible baseball trade when a team thought, wrongly, that they were getting the best player/sure thing.

[gundysmullet]

That trade worked out much better for the Mets than the Jays, that isn’t even debatable.

Context is key, I mean what was each team trying to accomplish? And did they?

Not that Dickey was terrible, he was right around league average as a starter in Toronto, but obviously we would have been much better off with Syndergaard. Dickey wasn’t even on the Jays playoff roster in 2016, the same season Syndergaard was a 23 year old allstar. And D’Araoud was a solid, starting catcher for most of his Mets years. Even with the injuries.

I won’t even get into the collateral damage this trade caused but I, and likely 98% of Jays fans, would strongly disagree with your assessment here. This was the shining example of a terrible baseball trade when a team thought, wrongly, that they were getting the best player/sure thing.

Well that’s an interesting discussion because in my mind “BPA“ is usually a consensus and was the consensus that Dickie was the best player to be acquired for Syndergaard? It sounds like that Syndergaard was considered higher than dickies so in this case just because management thought that Dickey was the best player available doesn’t make it so. And again, I was arguing for “BPA” over drafting or trading for “need” because if you have bad management in place they can still pick the wrong player out of “need” just like they could “BPA”. Bad teams are bad because of bad management.

[raptors2019]

I liked Stroman but whatever. It's all about rebuilding right now. Hope we do a few more trades and cash in on more prospects.

[Cyrus]

After the trade, MLB Pipeline dropped Kay to a 50 FV and put him below Manoah. He’s 5th and SWR is 7th in our system.

It probably because it wasn't updated for a bit and he was getting killed in triple a with the new balls so they rated lower.

Definitely not outside top 100 based on the lowering

[Sanyo]

I liked Stroman but whatever. It's all about rebuilding right now. Hope we do a few more trades and cash in on more prospects.

I hope to cash in but the rest of our guys arent gonna really bring us any impact prospects.

Galvis, Smoak, Hudson, etc not much.

Giles maybe if he does get traded. But Stroman got us Kay so I mean i dont expect any impact prospects.

[vaff87]

After the trade, MLB Pipeline dropped Kay to a 50 FV and put him below Manoah. He’s 5th and SWR is 7th in our system.

It probably because it wasn't updated for a bit and he was getting killed in triple a with the new balls so they rated lower.

Definitely not outside top 100 based on the lowering

They literally put out their mid-season rankings just a few days ago

[Sanyo]

I hope the Jays can go in 2020.

I want us to be the Cubs -- get a ton of low cost positional players while we spend money on pitching.

Instead we gonna take 3-4 years to do this and then by then all these guys are gonna be getting big pay raises and we'll hear the excuses from Rogers again