Varsho/Moreno/Kirk Discussion Thread

[Fairview4Life]

I can’t lie Moreno reminds me of a young pudge Rodriguez.

Pudge took like 7 years to become pudge.

Moreno looks like he will too.

So, even if he turns into a hall of famer, we got varshos whole prime before Moreno breaks out.


Seems kinda even Steven to me

How the hell does Moreno remind anyone of Ivan Rodriguez?

Everything about him. His profile, movements, slow steady development, emerging all around talent, his mentality, his iq everything.

I think you should go to baseball reference or fangraphs and look at his stats instead. Maybe check Rodriguez’s while you’re at it. He was significantly better than Moreno at the same age and no we didn’t have to wait 7 years to see him as an all star and winning silver sluggers and gold gloves every season.

[agkagk]

How the hell does Moreno remind anyone of Ivan Rodriguez?

Everything about him. His profile, movements, slow steady development, emerging all around talent, his mentality, his iq everything.

I think you should go to baseball reference or fangraphs and look at his stats instead.

I think you should learn to look past the numbers. It’ll help you interpret said numbers:


Anyways, I googled pudge and Moreno — tonnes of comparisons out there. Moreno is very highly thought of.

“ Meanwhile, the D’backs already won an NL pennant, and now need to just sit back and see how good Moreno can become. It’s very difficult to find a truly comparable catcher - a Gold Glove defender with a very high offensive upside. Pudge Rodriguez comes to mind, but that’s not fair to Moreno. Pudge, though his bat hadn’t really taken off yet, was already in his fifth year as a regular at age 23, Moreno’s current vintage. I’ll take a poor man’s Pudge anyday. “

“ Banister isn't yet comparing the young Venezuelan to some of the greats at catcher to have played, but one comes to mind in former Texas Rangers star Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez. Banister sees an athleticism in Moreno to the point where he feels Moreno could turn a double play at second base because of his quick hands and body rhythm. “

[Fairview4Life]

Bball ref says the best comp at his current age is Kurt Suzuki.

Why would anyone look past the numbers lol. You’re comparing him to one of the greatest catchers of all time, when he hasn’t produced anything close to that. Christ, if we’re going to ignore the numbers then I guess Varsho reminds me of Mike Trout. A fire hydrant who plays great D.

[agkagk]

Bball ref says the best comp at his current age is Kurt Suzuki.

Why would anyone look past the numbers lol. You’re comparing him to one of the greatest catchers of all time, when he hasn’t produced anything close to that. Christ, if we’re going to ignore the numbers then I guess Varsho reminds me of Mike Trout. A fire hydrant who plays great D.

Similar projection from a stats prospective less the steroids and pudge being a phenom.

Otherwise the game isn’t played on baseball reference.com lol just look at the 2 players man

[Randle McMurphy]

I will say that Moreno definitely runs like the 40 year old Ivan Rodriguez, probably his sole similarity

[Fairview4Life]

Bball ref says the best comp at his current age is Kurt Suzuki.

Why would anyone look past the numbers lol. You’re comparing him to one of the greatest catchers of all time, when he hasn’t produced anything close to that. Christ, if we’re going to ignore the numbers then I guess Varsho reminds me of Mike Trout. A fire hydrant who plays great D.

Similar projection from a stats prospective less the steroids and pudge being a phenom.

Otherwise the game isn’t played on baseball reference.com lol just look at the 2 players man

Sure I will look at them. When I look at Rodriguez I see him hitting the ball very hard pretty frequently. When I look at Moreno I do not see that.

[agkagk]

Bball ref says the best comp at his current age is Kurt Suzuki.

Why would anyone look past the numbers lol. You’re comparing him to one of the greatest catchers of all time, when he hasn’t produced anything close to that. Christ, if we’re going to ignore the numbers then I guess Varsho reminds me of Mike Trout. A fire hydrant who plays great D.

Similar projection from a stats prospective less the steroids and pudge being a phenom.

Otherwise the game isn’t played on baseball reference.com lol just look at the 2 players man

Sure I will look at them. When I look at Rodriguez I see him hitting the ball very hard pretty frequently. When I look at Moreno I do not see that.

Yes after steroids lol

When he was 21 he hit like a wet noodle

And I don’t need baseball reference to tell me that lol

[Fairview4Life]

Similar projection from a stats prospective less the steroids and pudge being a phenom.

Otherwise the game isn’t played on baseball reference.com lol just look at the 2 players man

Sure I will look at them. When I look at Rodriguez I see him hitting the ball very hard pretty frequently. When I look at Moreno I do not see that.

Yes after steroids lol

When he was 21 he hit like a wet noodle

And I don’t need baseball reference to tell me that lol

How old do you think Gabriel Moreno is? Rodriguez had a 412 slugging % when he was 21, by the way, and it only went up from there, until he was 36. Moreno's hit 408 two years ago and then dropped back to 380 last year. Because he actually hits like a wet noodle.

[agkagk]

Sure I will look at them. When I look at Rodriguez I see him hitting the ball very hard pretty frequently. When I look at Moreno I do not see that.

Yes after steroids lol

When he was 21 he hit like a wet noodle

And I don’t need baseball reference to tell me that lol

How old do you think Gabriel Moreno is? Rodriguez had a 412 slugging % when he was 21, by the way, and it only went up from there, until he was 36. Moreno's hit 408 two years ago and then dropped back to 380 last year. Because he actually hits like a wet noodle.

Stop cherry picking and misrepresenting what i wrote.

Pudge is the greatest catcher of all time, was a 19 year old soft hitting phenom that took steroids and after three unspectacular years for the era took off.

Moreno is older but following the same trajectory with a similar character athleticism body type and skill set. Less the steroid and juiced balls.

Different era and all that.

[Fairview4Life]

Stop cherry picking? What?

If you’re going to compare the greatest catcher of all time to Gabriel Moreno, then maybe Gabriel Moreno should have something in common with the things that made the greatest catcher of all time the greatest catcher of all time. He does not. He’s nowhere near the same class of player as Ivan Rodriguez, and it’s a terrible comparison. The hitting is a mile apart and we’ve already gone over his pitcher era inflated defensive war that predictably came back down to earth this year.

[agkagk]

Sure I will look at them. When I look at Rodriguez I see him hitting the ball very hard pretty frequently. When I look at Moreno I do not see that.

Yes after steroids lol

When he was 21 he hit like a wet noodle

And I don’t need baseball reference to tell me that lol

How old do you think Gabriel Moreno is? Rodriguez had a 412 slugging % when he was 21, by the way, and it only went up from there, until he was 36. Moreno's hit 408 two years ago and then dropped back to 380 last year. Because he actually hits like a wet noodle.

Dude there was like 5 catchers hitting 35 plus homers a year in the era

The players were juiced

The ball was juiced


The pitchers were screwed.


Lol

[bartron_44]

I can actually remember watching a young pudge. if you ignore the fact that pudge made the major leagues at age 19 vs Moreno debuting at 22, and just compare their first 3 seasons… its a lot closer than a lot of people make it seem…

Pudge- 1173 ABs 312 Hs 21 HRs 60 2Bs 5 3Bs 130 RBIs
8 SBs 58 BBs (.258/.303/.379) 2 GGs 33 Es 142 CS 48.1 CS% (vs 34.5 lgCS%) 5.6 WAR

Moreno- 715 ABs 200 Hs 13 HRs 38 2Bs 2 3Bs 102 RBIs 9 SBs 74 BBs (.280/.347/.393) 1 GG 7 Es 45 CS 34.6 CS% (vs 21.5 lgCS%) 7.6 WAR

So while Pudge got like 50% more ABs over his first 3 years to have better totals, the power as they broke into the big leagues was actually pretty similar. Moreno walks more and hit for a better average, and neither hit many HRs.

Pudge was a machine throwing people out, but Moreno has a way better fielding percentage. While in different eras, they both were about 13-14% better than the average mlb catcher at throwing runners out over those 3 seasons.

So while Pudge really took off at the dish in his 4th season, Moreno has actually had a better start to his career in the box. He just needs to stay healthier and start playing a heck of a lot more innings behind the dish. But even playing much less he still racked up 2 full WAR more than pudge in their first 3 seasons.


An even better comp might be Yadier Molina, since he made his debut at 21. Moreno’s offensive numbers are much better to Yadiers’s over his first 3 years, and could very well be better than his when all is said and done.

He doesnt have the same weapon attached to his right shoulder that Yadier or Pudge had, but in this era he could easily be considered “Yadier light”.

[Fairview4Life]

Why would we ignore the fact Moreno was 3 years older?

[Randle McMurphy]

Read on Twitter

The real MVP may be here for a while longer.

[bluerap23]

Read on Twitter

The real MVP may be here for a while longer.

Great - "we couldn't extend Vlad and Bo. But hey we locked up our .200 hitter!" R. Atkins, spring training.

[bartron_44]

Why would we ignore the fact Moreno was 3 years older?

Because the test doesn’t start until you hit the major leagues. Sure Pudge passed the minor league tests earlier than Moreno, but you don’t get an advantage for being younger when competing for rookie of the year. Or when competing for all-star votes once you make the show.

This isnt a contract negotiation, or a hall of fame vote where age matters . Its just a comp between 2 major league players actual performance. So I think taking their first 3 years is a pretty fair comparison. More so than comparing a hitter who has been taking the major league hitting test for years vs a hitter who has never seen that test before.

[Fairview4Life]

Comparing a 19 year old to a 22 year old is not a fair comparison lol.

[bartron_44]

Im sorry, are there levels to major league players? Were those two players not both playing the highest level of competition there is for the first time? How many days apart do they have to be exactly for it to start to matter? Would you not compare a 23 year old to a 26 year old player? A 29 year old to a 32 year old player?

There is no age limit to win ROTY in the big leagues. And pudge didnt break in to the major leagues looking like your average 19 year old. Who knows when he started juicing up, but that was because most of baseball was during that era. And not only in the majors.

Pudge had a body that could catch everyday in the big leagues. He was a man, not a child. I think this comp is pretty fair.

[Mehar]

Read on Twitter

The real MVP may be here for a while longer.

Great - "we couldn't extend Vlad and Bo. But hey we locked up our .200 hitter!" R. Atkins, spring training.

If your .200 hitter is the MVP again, this team will be dead last in the AL East in 2025 and should be big time sellers come trade deadline time.

[bartron_44]

I think Varsho is just getting close to needing an extension. Its him and Kirk that will be due for an extension next year…. Along with Springer and Gausman. So its quite possible the internal discussions have started about Varsho like they have with Vlad and Bo.

That being said, If Varsho ever figures out how to hit like he did in Arizona again, he could be like a 6 or 7 WAR type of player. So if you only go off of WAR, even a great season from Vladdy, Bo or Gimenez may not be enough to best him.

I know thats a big IF at this point, but he definitely has 30+ HR type of pop in his bat. I can totally get why the front office was willing to bet on him. He’s built like a little tank, and has tremendous instincts on defense. He came up as a catcher and an OF…and a couple years after ditching the pads he is winning the GG for CF in the AL. Kid is a freak.


He hasnt done it yet, but he still could explode with a career year at the plate. Especially if he gets to hit in the bottom 3 with no pressure.