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Cyrus wrote:I dunno Hicks walks a bunch of guys, what is walks per 9?

And we gave up albiet our farm isn't greatest, one of our top 10 pick and former 2nd rounder for 2 months of Hicks?

Cyrus wrote:I dunno Hicks walks a bunch of guys, what is walks per 9?

And we gave up albiet our farm isn't greatest, one of our top 10 pick and former 2nd rounder for 2 months of Hicks?

dagger wrote:

Cyrus wrote:I dunno Hicks walks a bunch of guys, what is walks per 9?

And we gave up albiet our farm isn't greatest, one of our top 10 pick and former 2nd rounder for 2 months of Hicks?

Kloffenstein wasn't projecting as anything special, he had stabilized a bit vs last season, but at this point he wasn't;t going to be in our plans in 2024 - all of our starters except Ryu are under countract, and if the Jays can keep Tiedemann healthy for a change, he will enter the 2024 picture at some point. Barriera is behind him, we added a college pitcher with our third rounder this year, and so this isn't a huge concern. Robberse is a bigger loss, but the same criteria apply - he wasn't going to impact 2024 and maybe not even 2025. In the meantime, the Jays get to show Hicks their mid-term potential and that has to give them some sort of added cred in offering him a new deal. Chad Green also continues to progress, so we might well have an excellent playoff-calibre bullpen.

Cyrus wrote:

dagger wrote:

Cyrus wrote:I dunno Hicks walks a bunch of guys, what is walks per 9?

And we gave up albiet our farm isn't greatest, one of our top 10 pick and former 2nd rounder for 2 months of Hicks?

Kloffenstein wasn't projecting as anything special, he had stabilized a bit vs last season, but at this point he wasn't;t going to be in our plans in 2024 - all of our starters except Ryu are under countract, and if the Jays can keep Tiedemann healthy for a change, he will enter the 2024 picture at some point. Barriera is behind him, we added a college pitcher with our third rounder this year, and so this isn't a huge concern. Robberse is a bigger loss, but the same criteria apply - he wasn't going to impact 2024 and maybe not even 2025. In the meantime, the Jays get to show Hicks their mid-term potential and that has to give them some sort of added cred in offering him a new deal. Chad Green also continues to progress, so we might well have an excellent playoff-calibre bullpen.

I think both guys were going to be in the rule 5 draft unless added to the 40 man roster, so that definitely played a role. Which i asked in the minor league thread who are our rule 5 guys coming. I think these are the guys we'll use as chips or atleast consolidate

Schad wrote:I'm not the biggest fan of Hicks, who hasn't gotten the greatest results despite his stuff. At the same time, the Cardinals -- who used to be regarded as one of, if not the best pitching development teams in baseball -- have really struggled in recent years to get the most out of their high-octane arms, and Hicks has utterly ludicrous stuff. It's not merely that he throws 102, he throws 102 and gives up very little power, which is a great combination.

Randle McMurphy wrote:

Schad wrote:I'm not the biggest fan of Hicks, who hasn't gotten the greatest results despite his stuff. At the same time, the Cardinals -- who used to be regarded as one of, if not the best pitching development teams in baseball -- have really struggled in recent years to get the most out of their high-octane arms, and Hicks has utterly ludicrous stuff. It's not merely that he throws 102, he throws 102 and gives up very little power, which is a great combination.

He has no clue where his pitches are going but there’s value in having a guy like this to blow teams away when you really need a strikeout late in a game. He is both incredibly hard to make contact off and square up. Would be better if we had a manager that knew how to use him properly though.

Randle McMurphy wrote:He has no clue where his pitches are going but there’s value in having a guy like this to blow teams away when you really need a strikeout late in a game. He is both incredibly hard to make contact off and square up. Would be better if we had a manager that knew how to use him properly though.

Hottie McShotty wrote:Does this mean that Nate Pearson is no longer needed? It seems possible that he could be traded as part of a package deal for a hitter.

There was talk about the Cardinals working out a long-term extension with Hicks, which would have been incredibly misguided for a reliever who’s already had Tommy John surgery and has consistently had walk rates far worse than the league average, including this year where he’s walked 12.7 percent of batters faced (NL average for relievers: 9.6 percent). Yes, Hicks sits 100-plus mph on his sinker and his sweeper/slider/dojigger gets a ton of whiffs, and that gives him some value because he gets groundballs and misses bats. He also walks too many guys and when he gives up contact it’s generally very hard contact, which is why he’s only been worth a win above replacement in 215 career innings. The Jays did just place closer Jordan Romano on the IL with a back injury, and their right-handed relief corps has been solid but unspectacular. Hicks gives them a different look and someone beyond Trevor Richards who comes into a game with a high probability that he’ll strike out the next batter.

Right-hander Sem Robberse is the better of the two prospects coming to the Cardinals in this trade, although he’s had a disappointing 2023 where his stuff hasn’t progressed at all from last year and is sliding even as the season has gone along. He was signed at 16 out of the Netherlands as a highly projectable pitcher with a great delivery and command for his age, but who was working in the mid-80s. He’s still mostly just 90-92 mph, topping out at 94 mph, with a 55 slider and curveball as well as a solid-average changeup, which should make him a back-end starter … but hitters get on his fastball, hitting nine of the 14 homers he’s allowed this year off the heater, and that propensity for hard contact keeps him from projecting as a starter right now. He won’t turn 22 until October so he’s young enough to find another 2-3 mph somewhere. That might make him a mid-rotation starter, whereas now he might just be an emergency call-up.

Right-hander Adam Kloffenstein repeated Double A this year and had improved results, although his stuff is still average at best and he’s going to have a harder time against even slightly more disciplined hitters. His best pitch, and his most-used one, is his slider, which was below-average last year but is solid-average now with a little better break and more velocity. He’s 90-94 mph now, up a little from 90-92 last year, although the pitch still doesn’t miss any bats and he has below-average command. His changeup is a distant third among his pitches and as a result, he’s had enough of a platoon split to question whether he could start even if his fastball and slider were better. I think he’s got a reliever ceiling, although that could work if moving to shorter outings boosts the velocity and effectiveness of the slider, but the most likely outcome is that he’s an up-and-down guy. For Hicks, who’s been wild when he hasn’t been hurt, this seems like a fair return as well.

polo007 wrote:when he gives up contact it’s generally very hard contact

Cyrus wrote:You think maybe we made this deal, because Jordan Romano injury might be more pressing/serious than what's being reported. Couldn't pitch allstar game, and first few games after it, then did, but has been shaky for a bit, before going on the IL. Maybe they got ahead of it and have a closing option instead of looking internal closing by committee duties?