Varsho/Moreno/Kirk Discussion Thread

[raptorforlife88]

We can't. But also shows you close they were in "fWAR" and how it means little when comparing the two. Moreno blows him out of the water when it comes to traditional stats, he's the better player. There's not much debate. Over the same period, Moreno has been better.

But hey... let's ignore this .. right?

Kirk v Moreno
2023-2025

Kirk
Games 356
Avg .263
OBP .335
OPS .717
HR 28
OPS+ 100
bWAR 6.2

Moreno
Games 291
Avg .278
OBP .348
OPS .406
HR 21
OPS+ 108
bWAR 8.5


"most clutch game in Modern jays history"

I guess we're talking about this iteration only? Cause Russell Martin, Edwin and Bats has him beat.

It's incredibly embarrassing to be touting bWAR which does not incorporate framing, one of the most important jobs for a catcher in a continued discussion comparing them. Disqualifying basically.

[raptorforlife88]

Varsho going supernova is also helpful to this discussion I've gotta say.

[Randle McMurphy]

Read on Twitter

Imagine being so delusional (or disingenuous) to still declare that the Jays didn’t get the best player in this trade.

Just an absolutely massive win in every respect.

[linery88]

He looked like a golfer on the 2nd HR.When you slot him right,he goes lights out.He enjoys shocking the opposition.Really glad for him,after all the injuries/surgeries.

[Raps in 4]

Greatest trade in Blue Jays history.

[brwnman]

We can't. But also shows you close they were in "fWAR" and how it means little when comparing the two. Moreno blows him out of the water when it comes to traditional stats, he's the better player. There's not much debate. Over the same period, Moreno has been better.

But hey... let's ignore this .. right?

Kirk v Moreno
2023-2025

Kirk
Games 356
Avg .263
OBP .335
OPS .717
HR 28
OPS+ 100
bWAR 6.2

Moreno
Games 291
Avg .278
OBP .348
OPS .406
HR 21
OPS+ 108
bWAR 8.5


"most clutch game in Modern jays history"

I guess we're talking about this iteration only? Cause Russell Martin, Edwin and Bats has him beat.

It's incredibly embarrassing to be touting bWAR which does not incorporate framing, one of the most important jobs for a catcher in a continued discussion comparing them. Disqualifying basically.

Pitch framing is one aspect of fWAR, but not the only one. They calculate defense differently and what they value in their calculation. bWAR doesn't view his blocking and SB prevention as highly as fWAR. fWAR also gives catchers additional value for WAR purposes and fWAR doesn't penalize players from GIDP anymore.

What's incredibly embarrassing is not understanding how different WAR works and their limitations and using either as the be-all, end-all for your argument. It has to be within context and traditional stats cannot be ignored.

But since that is your bible:
Varsho fWAR 7.2 in 365 games
Moreno fWAR 7.5 in 291 games
Not even close. And that's not considering Gurriel or salary or "years of control"

[brwnman]

This trade looks even better for us when you factor in Moreno’s lack of durability. Varsho has been the best player in the deal and it’s nice knowing he’s played nearly 100 extra games than Moreno.

Catchers generally start around ~120 games, OFs especially those who come in as defensive replacements play around 160 games.

Let's take the higher end for Moreno and use Kirk's best year in terms of GP which is 130 (Kirk is averaging less than 120GP per season btw in the same time frame):
Moreno should have played in 390 Games, but has only played in 291 games (-99 total)

Let's take the lower end for Varsho at 158 games which was his highest season:
Varsho should have played in 474 games, but has only played in 365 games (-109 total)

Looks like Varsho is less durable for his position than Moreno.

[Los_29]

It’s nice to finally have some closure. Although I want this thread to continue, it’s nice to know that we have definitively won this trade.

[Madvillainy2004]

Is a 3000 OPS good?

[WuTang_CMB]

Here for the Daulton Var-Show

[Randle McMurphy]

Here for the Daulton Var-Show

The real MVP, yes

[s e n s i]

i don't know, i think i'd really like the light hitting HOF-bound gabby moreno on the team right now. we could really have used some bloop singles this past weekend. or if not him, the other HOF-caliber player we should have traded varsho for instead.

[Randle McMurphy]

Kirk and Varsho combined for 24 total bases over 2 playoff games this weekend while also playing the best defense at their positions in the sport.

Imagine still trying to desperately cling on to the idea that this trade wasn't a massive win for this organization. Does it get any sadder?

[s e n s i]

Read on Twitter

what an unreal player we got here

[brwnman]

Kirk and Varsho combined for 24 total bases over 2 playoff games this weekend while also playing the best defense at their positions in the sport.

Imagine still trying to desperately cling on to the idea that this trade wasn't a massive win for this organization. Does it get any sadder?

Kirk and Varsho combined for 3 total bases over the last 2 playoff games in NY going a combined 2 for 17 while leaving 13 runners on base, striking out a bunch and multiple GIDP. Jays still won the series. Imagine if the Jays had better players than those two; they'd easily be the best team in the Majors.

Is a 3000 OPS good?

Is 2 for 17 good? I can't tell.

What I do know is Vlad's 1.609 OPS is pretty good.

[Randle McMurphy]

Read on Twitter

4th highest OPS in a series ever by a Jays player. What a trade.

[s e n s i]

a series OPS of 1.471 and a wRC+ over 300 for the best player in this trade to help send the yankees to cancun

one of the very best outfielders still playing as of today

[brwnman]

1/8 in the last 2 games of a 4-game series with 3 Ks and 5 LOB. Surely, Jays can do better. Have they tried convincing Dalton Pompey to unretire, he can provide the same production those last two games.

[JaysRule15]

1/8 in the last 2 games of a 4-game series with 3 Ks and 5 LOB. Surely, Jays can do better. Have they tried convincing Dalton Pompey to unretire, he can provide the same production those last two games.

So the first two games of the series don't matter? That's not a fair take at all. It's baseball. Even the best players will have 0-for stretches if you're looking at game to game samples.

[brwnman]

1/8 in the last 2 games of a 4-game series with 3 Ks and 5 LOB. Surely, Jays can do better. Have they tried convincing Dalton Pompey to unretire, he can provide the same production those last two games.

So the first two games of the series don't matter? That's not a fair take at all. It's baseball. Even the best players will have 0-for stretches if you're looking at game to game samples.

oh, they certainly do.

Just making sure we take SSS with a huge grain of salt. And account for all years of the trades, and not a 71 game stretch and all of a sudden start calling Varsho an above average or even an average hitter.