Varsho/Moreno/Kirk Discussion Thread

[Randle McMurphy]

This thread for me and the Kirk/Varsho haters

[GameChannel]

Guys, enough baiting Randle. You can post valid criticisms of Varsho here without making it personal.

We all have favourite players on teams.

I don’t mind, let them vent. They all know the truth and that’s that we don’t have that kind of improbable run without either of them playing at the elite level they did all year. They led to the greatest Jays season in a generation.

Yes. We all know the truth. Doulton Varsho is a **** coward and total liability. **** him.

[Mehar]

This thread for me and the Kirk/Varsho haters

When is the last time I bashed Kirk Varsho Fanboy? I said earlier today Kirk was the reason this team won the division, got home field advantage, and was exceptional in the post-season and all year with his pitch framing. I commended his for bounce back season and this team struggled without him in the lineup. I obviously trashed him in 2023/2024 when he was a mediocre hitter at the plate.

The problem was your Man Crush Varsho. Do not lump Kirk into the discussion. The team's record was better when Noodle Arm Varsho was hurt in 2025. He sucked the last 3 weeks at the plate in the post-season, outside of 2 Games in the ALDS. Yet you were complaining like a Little Girl when I and JaysRule15 suggested that Varsho should not be hitting before Clement in the post-season. You wanted your pathetic man crush who was looking scared and nervous at the plate, to keep on hitting 5th. The Jays win Game 6, Game 7, and likely Game 3 if your Man Crush was hitting 8th or 9th like I preferred. All that piece of Garbage you worship had to do was get a SAC FLY in the 9th, and I would have never said a bad word about him ever again. This team could have sucked for the next decade if all I cared, as long as I got to witness another World Series celebration as an Adult.

I guess it is simply bad luck whenever Varsho Stuck out like a fool, could not hit a ball out of the infield, and could not even get a SAC FLY to become a World Series hero. Simply Bad Luck that he left the Unlucky 13 men on base in Games 6 and 7. Simply Unlucky that he hit only .164 since Game 2 of the ALDS. I guess the exit velocity of his Grounder in the 9th was epic right? You are a joke, just like the 5 foot 8 midget you worship, who you somehow compared to Mike Trout back in the day. The Joker GIF suits you well. RIP Heath Ledger.

[Mehar]

Guys, enough baiting Randle. You can post valid criticisms of Varsho here without making it personal.

We all have favourite players on teams.

I don’t mind, let them vent. They all know the truth and that’s that we don’t have that kind of improbable run without either of them playing at the elite level they did all year. They led to the greatest Jays season in a generation.

Yes. We all know the truth. Doulton Varsho is a **** coward and total liability. **** him.

I will personally buy Randle a Jersey of the next team that piece of Garbage Varsho plays for in 2026. Hopefully IKF and Little are his teammates also on the same team. That coward at the plate, with a demeanor of a scared puppy and 5 foot 8 human feces, cost this City and Country a title that should have been ours after 32 years.

We were the better team than the Dodgers in this 7 Game Series. I do not care what anyone says. If Clement or Barger was hitting above Varsho, this Series was done in 5 games in LA. Even Game 6 latest back home. But Noodle Arm Varsho left 13 men on Base in Games 6 and Game 7. I guess that was "bad luck". How was the exit velocity of that 9th Inning Grounder Varsho Fanboy? Must have been elite right?

[GameChannel]

I don’t mind, let them vent. They all know the truth and that’s that we don’t have that kind of improbable run without either of them playing at the elite level they did all year. They led to the greatest Jays season in a generation.

Yes. We all know the truth. Doulton Varsho is a **** coward and total liability. **** him.

I will personally buy Randle a Jersey of the next team that piece of Garbage Varsho plays for in 2026. Hopefully IKF and Little are his teammates also on the same team. That coward at the plate, with a demeanor of a scared puppy and 5 foot 8 human feces, cost this City and Country a title that should have been ours after 32 years.

We were the better team than the Dodgers in this 7 Game Series. I do not care what anyone says. If Clement or Barger was hitting above Varsho, this Series was done in 5 games in LA. Even Game 6 latest back home. But Noodle Arm Varsho left 13 men on Base in Games 6 and Game 7. I guess that was "bad luck". How was the exit velocity of that 9th Inning Grounder Varsho Fanboy? Must have been elite right?

It’s a lost cause reasoning with Varsho truthers.

What struck me last night was that this Noodle arm **** was smiling in his post-game locker room interviews. I’d be devastated if I cost my team the World Series but not this mofo. He had the audacity to smile. **** him.

[Randle McMurphy]

Guys, enough baiting Randle. You can post valid criticisms of Varsho here without making it personal.

We all have favourite players on teams.

I don’t mind, let them vent. They all know the truth and that’s that we don’t have that kind of improbable run without either of them playing at the elite level they did all year. They led to the greatest Jays season in a generation.

Yes. We all know the truth. Doulton Varsho is a **** coward and total liability. **** him.

Yeah, one of the most valuable players in baseball who hit 23 HR in a little over 80 games while playing elite defense is a liability

Makes sense

[GameChannel]

I don’t mind, let them vent. They all know the truth and that’s that we don’t have that kind of improbable run without either of them playing at the elite level they did all year. They led to the greatest Jays season in a generation.

Yes. We all know the truth. Doulton Varsho is a **** coward and total liability. **** him.

Yeah, one of the most valuable players in baseball who hit 23 HR in a little over 80 games while playing elite defense is a liability

Makes sense

Yeah yeah yeah. You keep hanging on to stats. We will believe our eyes and not empty stats.

[ill-Will03]

I don’t mind, let them vent. They all know the truth and that’s that we don’t have that kind of improbable run without either of them playing at the elite level they did all year. They led to the greatest Jays season in a generation.

Yes. We all know the truth. Doulton Varsho is a **** coward and total liability. **** him.

Yeah, one of the most valuable players in baseball who hit 23 HR in a little over 80 games while playing elite defense is a liability

Makes sense

He definitely had a good regular season but come on man you have to admit he completely fumbled this last series at the plate.

[Randle McMurphy]

Yes. We all know the truth. Doulton Varsho is a **** coward and total liability. **** him.

Yeah, one of the most valuable players in baseball who hit 23 HR in a little over 80 games while playing elite defense is a liability

Makes sense

He definitely had a good regular season but come on man you have to admit he completely fumbled this last series at the plate.

They don’t even come close to making the WS without his massive contributions

Hell, they maybe don’t even make game 7 without his HR off Snell

Extend him while we have the chance this offseason and reap the benefits

[JN]

Varsho struggled hard in game 6 and game 7. but he literally executed what he had to do in the 9th inning last night. Now yes he could have made it very easy with a fly ball, but his ball in play was enough to get done,,, except for the fact that IKF is stupid or fell asleep at a crucial time.

Analytical data shows that IKF had one of the 10 shortest leads of the entire world series last night from any base while he was at 3rd last night, and one of the 5 shortest extended leads of the entire world series. That is literally insane, especially when we consider that Varsho never hits liners to the 3rd base side, and IKF wasn't being held on the bag like runners at first base.

I'm not looking to get involved in this debate, but I will say this. Randle is over-enthusiastic about Varsho, and overrates his worth. And can bait. But let's be also be clear Varsho is still a pretty good ball player, that had a good regular season, a great series against New York, and happened to have a really tough World Series. He is not a worthless or terrible player as many here are claiming or a coward. Claiming that is arguably more stupid than some of what Randle claims in the other direction.

So I guess I'll be in the middle. I'll be quite happy if we get Varsho in arbitration next year at somewhere between $10-$15m -- he clearly produces to that value. As for a long term contract I am wary about the term -- Varsho is one of the best defensive outfielders in baseball, that is a big part of his value... but will his body still allow him to be one of the best defenders in 4 years?

[ill-Will03]

Yeah, one of the most valuable players in baseball who hit 23 HR in a little over 80 games while playing elite defense is a liability

Makes sense

He definitely had a good regular season but come on man you have to admit he completely fumbled this last series at the plate.

They don’t even come close to making the WS without his massive contributions

Hell, they maybe don’t even make game 7 without his HR off Snell

Extend him while we have the chance this offseason and reap the benefits

Im not talking about them making it to the World Series. Im talking about his play in the last series. Game 6 and 7 specifically. You seriously think he played well?

13 runners LoB is pretty crazy I’m sure even you can admit that.

[Mehar]

Yeah, one of the most valuable players in baseball who hit 23 HR in a little over 80 games while playing elite defense is a liability

Makes sense

He definitely had a good regular season but come on man you have to admit he completely fumbled this last series at the plate.

They don’t even come close to making the WS without his massive contributions

Hell, they maybe don’t even make game 7 without his HR off Snell

Extend him while we have the chance this offseason and reap the benefits

Jays won Game 1 by the score of 11 to 4 (lol). Varsho's contribution off his home run was meaningless. What about the rest of the series? You are right. Series would have not gone 7 Games.

It would have ended in 5 or 6 Games, if your Number 5 hitter was just simply average in this series and not beyond atrocious like your Man Crush Varsho. If this clown Schneider had the brain to realize after the Seattle Series that it made sense to have Clement hitting ahead of Varsho.

[GameChannel]

He definitely had a good regular season but come on man you have to admit he completely fumbled this last series at the plate.

They don’t even come close to making the WS without his massive contributions

Hell, they maybe don’t even make game 7 without his HR off Snell

Extend him while we have the chance this offseason and reap the benefits

Jays won Game 1 by the score of 11 to 4 (lol). Varsho's contribution off his home run was meaningless. What about the rest of the series? You are right. Series would have not gone 7 Games.

It would have ended in 5 or 6 Games, if your Number 5 hitter was just simply average in this series and not beyond atrocious like your Man Crush Varsho. If this clown Schneider had the brain to realize after the Seattle Series that it made sense to have Clement hitting ahead of Varsho.

He will never admit Varsho sucked. He will follow Varsho to his new team and stop being a Jays fan - that’s how blindly in love he is with Varsho.

[brwnman]

Varsho struggled hard in game 6 and game 7. but he literally executed what he had to do in the 9th inning last night. Now yes he could have made it very easy with a fly ball, but his ball in play was enough to get done,,, except for the fact that IKF is stupid or fell asleep at a crucial time.

Analytical data shows that IKF had one of the 10 shortest leads of the entire world series last night from any base while he was at 3rd last night, and one of the 5 shortest extended leads of the entire world series. That is literally insane, especially when we consider that Varsho never hits liners to the 3rd base side, and IKF wasn't being held on the bag like runners at first base.

I'm not looking to get involved in this debate, but I will say this. Randle is over-enthusiastic about Varsho, and overrates his worth. And can bait. But let's be also be clear Varsho is still a pretty good ball player, that had a good regular season, a great series against New York, and happened to have a really tough World Series. He is not a worthless or terrible player as many here are claiming or a coward. Claiming that is arguably more stupid than some of what Randle claims in the other direction.

So I guess I'll be in the middle. I'll be quite happy if we get Varsho in arbitration next year at somewhere between $10-$15m -- he clearly produces to that value. As for a long term contract I am wary about the term -- Varsho is one of the best defensive outfielders in baseball, that is a big part of his value... but will his body still allow him to be one of the best defenders in 4 years?

Varsho did not do his job in the 9th. He hit a ball directly to a fielder in a drawn-in infield. If Rojas doesn't lose his balance on his own, he'd get IKF out regardless of how big of a lead IKF had in the 9th. Only reason it was even that close was because Rojas lost his balance momentarily.

And don't be fooled into thinking Varsho only struggled game 6 and 7. Varsho had a .470OPS from Game 3 of the ALDS through Game 7 of the World Series. That's 16 games (out of 18 total).

The three worst players by cWPA:
1. Varsho (-34.96%)
2. Giminez (-31.30%)
3. Kirk (-30.20%)

Without Varsho, Jays were a better team and played better in the regular season as well. And he was the top reason why they lost in the WS and why the Seattle series took 7 games (second worst WPA of any Jay regular in that series as well). Take away all his hits in the postseason and all his RBIs, and the Jays don't lose a single game that they won. How crazy of a stat is that?

[brwnman]

Poor Varshonites, calling a 71-game sample a "good season" all the while knowing his offensive numbers were already trending downwards and his defense cost the Jays more runs than he saved this past season. In the playoffs, he made two above average plays and let 3 balls drop that should have been caught by an above average CF. And of course, his arm is the worst in ML history for an outfielder - that's only going to get worse.

An oft-injured, below average offensive outfielder with declining defense is who they have hitched their wagon too. Hard to walk back from that one, I suppose.

[Raps in 4]

Moreno playoff wRC+: 101

Varsho playoff wRC+: 83

What a fumble this trade was. We traded our top prospect for Kevin Pillar 2.0.

[Mehar]

Poor Varshonites, calling a 71-game sample a "good season" all the while knowing his offensive numbers were already trending downwards and his defense cost the Jays more runs than he saved this past season. In the playoffs, he made two above average plays and let 3 balls drop that should have been caught by an above average CF. And of course, his arm is the worst in ML history for an outfielder - that's only going to get worse.

An oft-injured, below average offensive outfielder with declining defense is who they have hitched their wagon too. Hard to walk back from that one, I suppose.

It is would be easy to walk back from that one. Just let him walk in the off-season by declining his arbitration. Use that 10 million you are going to save to target a guy like Bellinger.

People laughed when I said we should have traded Varsho for another high leverage reliever before the deadline, given how well this team was playing without him. In hindsight, another high leverage reliever would have helped this team immensely over one of the most pathetic hitters I have seen hit 5th for a team in the World Series.

[Raps in 4]

Poor Varshonites, calling a 71-game sample a "good season" all the while knowing his offensive numbers were already trending downwards and his defense cost the Jays more runs than he saved this past season. In the playoffs, he made two above average plays and let 3 balls drop that should have been caught by an above average CF. And of course, his arm is the worst in ML history for an outfielder - that's only going to get worse.

An oft-injured, below average offensive outfielder with declining defense is who they have hitched their wagon too. Hard to walk back from that one, I suppose.

Is Varsho's shoulder supposed to heal this off-season, or is he cooked as a defender too? Right now he's a below-average hitter with zero range who can make nice catches in the OF. That's not very valuable.

[JN]

Varsho struggled hard in game 6 and game 7. but he literally executed what he had to do in the 9th inning last night. Now yes he could have made it very easy with a fly ball, but his ball in play was enough to get done,,, except for the fact that IKF is stupid or fell asleep at a crucial time.

Analytical data shows that IKF had one of the 10 shortest leads of the entire world series last night from any base while he was at 3rd last night, and one of the 5 shortest extended leads of the entire world series. That is literally insane, especially when we consider that Varsho never hits liners to the 3rd base side, and IKF wasn't being held on the bag like runners at first base.

I'm not looking to get involved in this debate, but I will say this. Randle is over-enthusiastic about Varsho, and overrates his worth. And can bait. But let's be also be clear Varsho is still a pretty good ball player, that had a good regular season, a great series against New York, and happened to have a really tough World Series. He is not a worthless or terrible player as many here are claiming or a coward. Claiming that is arguably more stupid than some of what Randle claims in the other direction.

So I guess I'll be in the middle. I'll be quite happy if we get Varsho in arbitration next year at somewhere between $10-$15m -- he clearly produces to that value. As for a long term contract I am wary about the term -- Varsho is one of the best defensive outfielders in baseball, that is a big part of his value... but will his body still allow him to be one of the best defenders in 4 years?

Varsho did not do his job in the 9th. He hit a ball directly to a fielder in a drawn-in infield. If Rojas doesn't lose his balance on his own, he'd get IKF out regardless of how big of a lead IKF had in the 9th. Only reason it was even that close was because Rojas lost his balance momentarily.

And don't be fooled into thinking Varsho only struggled game 6 and 7. Varsho had a .470OPS from Game 3 of the ALDS through Game 7 of the World Series. That's 16 games (out of 18 total).

The three worst players by cWPA:
1. Varsho (-34.96%)
2. Giminez (-31.30%)
3. Kirk (-30.20%)

Without Varsho, Jays were a better team and played better in the regular season as well. And he was the top reason why they lost in the WS and why the Seattle series took 7 games (second worst WPA of any Jay regular in that series as well). Take away all his hits in the postseason and all his RBIs, and the Jays don't lose a single game that they won. How crazy of a stat is that?

There is no point even entering this thread, as the heated debate here has taken a life of its own. Both sides are going to cherry pick, use stats to be intentionally disingenuous (not always, but a lot), move goal posts, not give credit where it is due.

Have a good winter fellas. I'm going back to ignoring this thread -- heck i should have never entered it again -- because there are posters I like interacting with on this board that are going way off base in this thread.

[Randle McMurphy]

Read on Twitter

Not only was the trade a massive win, I'd argue it was the best Jays trade in a generation. If Kirk and Varsho were not Jays this year (and they wouldn't have been without this trade), this was a middling .500 team that finishes out of the playoffs. Their presence and elite play elevated the franchise to real contender status and led them on a run that would have ended in a WS appearance.

What a trade.