Varsho/Moreno/Kirk Discussion Thread

[JaysRule25]

Guys, I know we're all still upset about the loss. I get it, Varsho and IKF are the most polarizing names on the team that I'm seeing everywhere else on social media.

I think both sides here have a point. Varsho isn't total trash bench player. He brings value with his glove and brings power from the CF position which is a premium. He can be a 3-4 WAR player and that's something you always take from a CF.

But in terms of offense, his skillset completely goes against Popkins and the rest of this lineup's philosophy, and thats why it feels so jarring seeing him come up hitting middle of the order and consistently struggle to put the ball in play and swing and miss when he's struggling. He hit like .160 in ALCS and WS. Which I believe should've been enough of a reason for Schneider to drop him in the lineup. I remember being furious at seeing the Game 6 lineup and sure enough Varsho getting those at-bats instead of Barger cost us the championship. Schneider then finally made the change in Game 7 and moved Barger higher, but he still put Clement below Varsho which was costly as well.

So it's not even just Varsho. Schneider and whatever computer he listens to for his lineup are also to blame for not putting the best lineup in the field. This is the one aspect where I think Dodgers had the better manager who made all the right moves to win.

But regardless of where we all stand, turning on each other in order to vent isn't gonna make anything better. It's a small community here. Let's not react in ways that might cause divide or fracture.

It's possible to debate the pros and cons of Varsho without namedropping each other and making things personal. If I'm seeing continued personal attacks, this thread will be getting locked again.

[C Court]

This thread should have been locked permanently a long time ago. Taking it from a Jays/Arizona trade thread to a Varsho and sometimes Kirk thread only made it more volatile. Both teams got something they like out of the deal, so let's leave it at that and move on.

[Randle McMurphy]

This thread should have been locked permanently a long time ago. Taking it from a Jays/Arizona trade thread to a Varsho and sometimes Kirk thread only made it more volatile. Both teams got something they like out of the deal, so let's leave it at that and move on.

Sure, we can leave it at the fact that the Jays got the best player in the deal, chose the better catcher of the two, and won the trade by having the most successful season in the franchise in over 3 decades through their contributions. It's settled.

[brwnman]

This thread should have been locked permanently a long time ago. Taking it from a Jays/Arizona trade thread to a Varsho and sometimes Kirk thread only made it more volatile. Both teams got something they like out of the deal, so let's leave it at that and move on.

Sure, we can leave it at the fact that the Jays got the best player in the deal, chose the better catcher of the two, and won the trade by having the most successful season in the franchise in over 3 decades through their contributions. It's settled.

uh oh... now someone wants it locked cause it's abundantly clear Jays got fleeced. He thought Year 3, the perception would change.

D'Backs got the best catcher, player and only one to have a positive impact for his team in the playoffs. Not only that, D'Backs won this trade 3 years in a row. Gotta hurt. But at least it's settled.

[brwnman]

Guys, I know we're all still upset about the loss. I get it, Varsho and IKF are the most polarizing names on the team that I'm seeing everywhere else on social media.

I think both sides here have a point. Varsho isn't total trash bench player. He brings value with his glove and brings power from the CF position which is a premium. He can be a 3-4 WAR player and that's something you always take from a CF.

But in terms of offense, his skillset completely goes against Popkins and the rest of this lineup's philosophy, and thats why it feels so jarring seeing him come up hitting middle of the order and consistently struggle to put the ball in play and swing and miss when he's struggling. He hit like .160 in ALCS and WS. Which I believe should've been enough of a reason for Schneider to drop him in the lineup. I remember being furious at seeing the Game 6 lineup and sure enough Varsho getting those at-bats instead of Barger cost us the championship. Schneider then finally made the change in Game 7 and moved Barger higher, but he still put Clement below Varsho which was costly as well.

So it's not even just Varsho. Schneider and whatever computer he listens to for his lineup are also to blame for not putting the best lineup in the field. This is the one aspect where I think Dodgers had the better manager who made all the right moves to win.

But regardless of where we all stand, turning on each other in order to vent isn't gonna make anything better. It's a small community here. Let's not react in ways that might cause divide or fracture.

It's possible to debate the pros and cons of Varsho without namedropping each other and making things personal. If I'm seeing continued personal attacks, this thread will be getting locked again.

Without a doubt. There was no reason for him to bat where he did, and he came up with numerous opportunities that ultimately cost the Jays a WS.

[Randle McMurphy]

This thread should have been locked permanently a long time ago. Taking it from a Jays/Arizona trade thread to a Varsho and sometimes Kirk thread only made it more volatile. Both teams got something they like out of the deal, so let's leave it at that and move on.

Sure, we can leave it at the fact that the Jays got the best player in the deal, chose the better catcher of the two, and won the trade by having the most successful season in the franchise in over 3 decades through their contributions. It's settled.

uh oh... now someone wants it locked cause it's abundantly clear Jays got fleeced. He thought Year 3, the perception would change.

D'Backs got the best catcher, player and only one to have a positive impact for his team in the playoffs. Not only that, D'Backs won this trade 3 years in a row. Gotta hurt. But at least it's settled.

I'm beginning to think you genuinely believe your own lies at this point.

[C Court]

This thread should have been locked permanently a long time ago. Taking it from a Jays/Arizona trade thread to a Varsho and sometimes Kirk thread only made it more volatile. Both teams got something they like out of the deal, so let's leave it at that and move on.

Sure, we can leave it at the fact that the Jays got the best player in the deal, chose the better catcher of the two, and won the trade by having the most successful season in the franchise in over 3 decades through their contributions. It's settled.

Are you really that petty and insecure, that you can't even be decent and acknowledge that both sides can win?

[brwnman]

Sure, we can leave it at the fact that the Jays got the best player in the deal, chose the better catcher of the two, and won the trade by having the most successful season in the franchise in over 3 decades through their contributions. It's settled.

uh oh... now someone wants it locked cause it's abundantly clear Jays got fleeced. He thought Year 3, the perception would change.

D'Backs got the best catcher, player and only one to have a positive impact for his team in the playoffs. Not only that, D'Backs won this trade 3 years in a row. Gotta hurt. But at least it's settled.

I'm beginning to think you genuinely believe your own lies at this point.

I genuinely believe you believe your own lies. But it's not just me, it's everyone else too that believes that about you.

[Randle McMurphy]

This thread should have been locked permanently a long time ago. Taking it from a Jays/Arizona trade thread to a Varsho and sometimes Kirk thread only made it more volatile. Both teams got something they like out of the deal, so let's leave it at that and move on.

Sure, we can leave it at the fact that the Jays got the best player in the deal, chose the better catcher of the two, and won the trade by having the most successful season in the franchise in over 3 decades through their contributions. It's settled.

Are you really that petty and insecure, that you can't even be decent and acknowledge that both sides can win?

Both sides can win a deal but in this case one side can and did win more.

[Randle McMurphy]

uh oh... now someone wants it locked cause it's abundantly clear Jays got fleeced. He thought Year 3, the perception would change.

D'Backs got the best catcher, player and only one to have a positive impact for his team in the playoffs. Not only that, D'Backs won this trade 3 years in a row. Gotta hurt. But at least it's settled.

I'm beginning to think you genuinely believe your own lies at this point.

I genuinely believe you believe your own lies. But it's not just me, it's everyone else too that believes that about you.

Another lie. What a tangled web we weave.

[C Court]

Seriously, you're like a spoiled child. You need help.

[Randle McMurphy]

Seriously, you're like a spoiled child.

I'm not the one finding ways to hate on and trash one of the team's best players who helped lead the Jays to a AL title and WS appearance because he had a bad AB or two in game 7.

Sounds pretty childish, doesn't it?

[brwnman]

Is Varsho's shoulder supposed to heal this off-season, or is he cooked as a defender too? Right now he's a below-average hitter with zero range who can make nice catches in the OF. That's not very valuable.

Varsho's fWAR rate this year was only behind Springer and Kirk among Jays players. That is the definition of extremely valuable.

Pretty good chance Kirk and Varsho will also lead the team in WAR next year if they stay healthy as well (unless Vlad chooses to take his playoff form to the regular season and doesn't decide to spend half of the year just hitting groundballs).

Moreno's fWAR rate was higher than Varsho this year, in case anyone was wondering.

as per Randle, that is the definition of being extremely valuable and we can now firmly conclude that Moreno is more valuable than Varsho.

Oh and btw, Moreno's fWAR rate was higher in 2024 and 2023 as well.

Thank you RM, it finally happened after ~115 pages.

In RM's own words.

Moreno is more valuable than Varsho the last 3 years. Gurriel was more valuable than Varsho in 2023 (higher fWAR in fewer games).

And based on cWPA; Varsho was the single biggest contributing factor in the Jays losing the WS.

Jays got FLEECED!

[Randle McMurphy]

Varsho's fWAR rate this year was only behind Springer and Kirk among Jays players. That is the definition of extremely valuable.

Pretty good chance Kirk and Varsho will also lead the team in WAR next year if they stay healthy as well (unless Vlad chooses to take his playoff form to the regular season and doesn't decide to spend half of the year just hitting groundballs).

Moreno's fWAR rate was higher than Varsho this year, in case anyone was wondering.

as per Randle, that is the definition of being extremely valuable and we can now firmly conclude that Moreno is more valuable than Varsho.

Oh and btw, Moreno's fWAR rate was higher in 2024 and 2023 as well.

Thank you RM, it finally happened after ~115 pages.

In RM's own words.

Moreno is more valuable than Varsho the last 3 years. Gurriel was more valuable than Varsho in 2023 (higher fWAR in fewer games).

And based on cWPA; Varsho was the single biggest contributing factor in the Jays losing the WS.

Jays got FLEECED!

That reminds me though:

Daulton Varsho 2023-2025 rWAR: 11.4
Gabriel Moreno 2023-2025 rWAR: 8.5

The trade that keeps on giving.

Jays won. They always did and always will.

[brwnman]

Moreno's fWAR rate was higher than Varsho this year, in case anyone was wondering.

as per Randle, that is the definition of being extremely valuable and we can now firmly conclude that Moreno is more valuable than Varsho.

Oh and btw, Moreno's fWAR rate was higher in 2024 and 2023 as well.

Thank you RM, it finally happened after ~115 pages.

In RM's own words.

Moreno is more valuable than Varsho the last 3 years. Gurriel was more valuable than Varsho in 2023 (higher fWAR in fewer games).

And based on cWPA; Varsho was the single biggest contributing factor in the Jays losing the WS.

Jays got FLEECED!

That reminds me though:

Daulton Varsho 2023-2025 rWAR: 11.4
Gabriel Moreno 2023-2025 rWAR: 8.5

The trade that keeps on giving.

Jays won. They always did and always will.

3 years in a row - Jays lost this trade.

Moreno's fWAR rate was higher than Varsho in 2023, 2024 and 2025

And he's under control for 3 more years #FLEECED

[C Court]

Seriously, you're like a spoiled child.

I'm not the one finding ways to hate on and trash one of the team's best players who helped lead the Jays to a AL title and WS appearance because he had a bad AB or two in game 7.

Sounds pretty childish, doesn't it?

Get professional help.

[Randle McMurphy]

In RM's own words.

Moreno is more valuable than Varsho the last 3 years. Gurriel was more valuable than Varsho in 2023 (higher fWAR in fewer games).

And based on cWPA; Varsho was the single biggest contributing factor in the Jays losing the WS.

Jays got FLEECED!

That reminds me though:

Daulton Varsho 2023-2025 rWAR: 11.4
Gabriel Moreno 2023-2025 rWAR: 8.5

The trade that keeps on giving.

Jays won. They always did and always will.

3 years in a row - Jays lost this trade.

Moreno's fWAR rate was higher than Varsho in 2023, 2024 and 2025

And he's under control for 3 more years #FLEECED

That reminds me though:

Daulton Varsho 2023-2025 rWAR: 11.4
Gabriel Moreno 2023-2025 rWAR: 8.5

The trade that keeps on giving.

If that isn't a fleecing for the Jays, I don't know what is.

[brwnman]

In RM's own words.

Moreno is more valuable than Varsho the last 3 years. Gurriel was more valuable than Varsho in 2023 (higher fWAR in fewer games).

And based on cWPA; Varsho was the single biggest contributing factor in the Jays losing the WS.

Jays got FLEECED!

That reminds me though:

Daulton Varsho 2023-2025 rWAR: 11.4
Gabriel Moreno 2023-2025 rWAR: 8.5

The trade that keeps on giving.

Jays won. They always did and always will.

3 years in a row - Jays lost this trade.

Moreno's fWAR rate was higher than Varsho in 2023, 2024 and 2025

And he's under control for 3 more years #FLEECED

If that isn't a fleecing for the D'Backs, I don't know what is. The got the best catcher (making peanuts), best LF for 2023, and kept their own best CF (making peanuts).

[Randle McMurphy]

Seriously, you're like a spoiled child.

I'm not the one finding ways to hate on and trash one of the team's best players who helped lead the Jays to a AL title and WS appearance because he had a bad AB or two in game 7.

Sounds pretty childish, doesn't it?

Get professional help.

Says the guy spending days in this thread here venting and trashing a professional baseball player because he didn't come through in an AB after a tremendous season (both for him personally and his team).

But please, tell us more about being childish.

[Randle McMurphy]

Jays won. They always did and always will.

3 years in a row - Jays lost this trade.

Moreno's fWAR rate was higher than Varsho in 2023, 2024 and 2025

And he's under control for 3 more years #FLEECED

If that isn't a fleecing for the D'Backs, I don't know what is. The got the best catcher (making peanuts), best LF for 2023, and kept their own best CF (making peanuts).

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