Joe Biagini, Aaron Sanchez traded to Astros for Derek Fisher

[agkagk]

[quote="Schad"]Fun fact: the search function now works. You have exactly zero posts mentioning Dalton Pompey prior to the 2018 offseason.[/quote

Fun times. Maybe I had another account back in the day.

[agkagk]

You guys haven’t read vaff87’s post if you think he is a Shapiro/Atkins apologist. See what was said a few years ago. Vaff is fair with their evaluation of the FO, both positive and negative posts which is what fair evaluations are about.

If people truly understood baseball, rebuilding, trade markets and ownership pressures you would be able to evaluate fairly and without bias.

This management has done a lot rebuilding the front office, coaching staff and adding young talent to the franchise and too me that is the most important part. They haven’t done a great job marketing, understanding the market (both trade and city/country) and perhaps in trade but only time will truly tell. In terms of selling Donaldson, Osuna and Giles; a lot has to do with bad luck - injuries and a DV case.

I hope they are given 2020 and 2021 to see their core through and let their prospects and trades materialize.

Outside of bichette, the groshans/Kloff draft and hopefully gurriel this management team has left an obscene amount of surplus value on the table. Even if things work out, the opportunity costs are huge.

Bad luck is just a softer way of saying, lacked foresight.

[Schad]

They have absolutely made missteps, and I don't think that anyone would argue against that. We could be in a better position today than we are had we traded Donaldson or Osuna earlier, as we ought to have.

However, that's pretty standard. One of the reasons that people keep pointing out the litany of bad moves that AA made is that, despite those bad moves, we built a short-term contender. Evaluating a management group means looking at the broader picture, and the broader picture is that we've assembled a really good cache of young talent. The best we've had since the late 80s, really. The odds are quite good that we'll be able to turn this into a team that competes for an extended period...if they fail to do so, they absolutely deserve to come in for criticism, but to date they've done more good than harm. We've got a pile of youngsters in the majors, somewhere between 0-1 bad contracts (and that one is manageable), and a pretty nice-looking second wave developing. There have been worse times in the history of the Jays.

[vaff87]

We have a lot of good young talent both on the team and in the minors...

“Shatkins are ****ing clueless, man.”

A lot of these same people would have been whining about Astros management or Cubs management before they broke out.

“Theo Epstein is an idiot, can’t believe we gave him all that money. Typical Cubs.”

[vaff87]

Fun fact: the search function now works. You have exactly zero posts mentioning Dalton Pompey prior to the 2018 offseason. No one on this forum called you names for stating that Pompey was a non-prospect, because it's an opinion that you never expressed here.

Yeah, and I bet if you look up my posts about Dalton Pompey, they’re nothing like he claims. I was never a particularly big Pompey fan.

Edit: I looked through my posts on Pompey, and I see none of me criticizing anyone for their opinion on him. And as you said, he has no posts mentioning Pompey. So it’s pretty safe to say he pulled this accusation directly out of his ass.

[phillipmike]

You guys haven’t read vaff87’s post if you think he is a Shapiro/Atkins apologist. See what was said a few years ago. Vaff is fair with their evaluation of the FO, both positive and negative posts which is what fair evaluations are about.

If people truly understood baseball, rebuilding, trade markets and ownership pressures you would be able to evaluate fairly and without bias.

This management has done a lot rebuilding the front office, coaching staff and adding young talent to the franchise and too me that is the most important part. They haven’t done a great job marketing, understanding the market (both trade and city/country) and perhaps in trade but only time will truly tell. In terms of selling Donaldson, Osuna and Giles; a lot has to do with bad luck - injuries and a DV case.

I hope they are given 2020 and 2021 to see their core through and let their prospects and trades materialize.

Outside of bichette, the groshans/Kloff draft and hopefully gurriel this management team has left an obscene amount of surplus value on the table. Even if things work out, the opportunity costs are huge.

Bad luck is just a softer way of saying, lacked foresight.

So they should have saw the future of Donaldson’s injuries, Giles injury, Tepera’s injury, Galvis having back spasms the day before the deadline and Osuna having legal troubles? Like it or not, you cant control everything when you are dealing with humans.

I challenge you to name a front office that had zero issues or problems. You can always point to missteps and leaving surplus value on the table with any front office.

I’ll make the argument that the only two players that kept value after they left the Jays were EE and Donaldson, everyone else got worse. And with EE we got a compensation pick that was turned into Nate Pearson plus other assets.

As I said before, sometimes your players aren’t as good as you think especially in this new market (post-2016).

Only 2 moves I do differently is keeping Donaldson and give him the QO and holding onto Osuna until he built his value back up. But I understand why they wanted to deal Osuna. Donaldson, well that’s a different story.

There is definitely more than just Bichette, Groshans, Kloffenstein and Gurriel.

Pearson, Pardinho, Manoah, Kirk, Woods-Richardson, Biggio, Hiraldo, Martinez etc. This is a ridiculously young, cheap and cost effective core. That is huge.

The player development helped develop guys like Vladdy, Bichette, Pearson and Biggio. They took injured or underperforming prospects from the previous regime and turned them into something; Jansen, Borucki, Reid-Foley, Murphy, Tellez etc.

Sure they might have missed on Donaldson and/or Osuna and Happ. But they hit much better on smaller deals. If they were striking out on big and small deals then it would be a problem. But they are finding value and a lot of it for pretty much nothing.

Woodman into Diaz into Thornton.
Leone (waiver pickup) and Greene into Grichuk.
Hutch into Liriano, Ramirez and McGuire.
Months of Liriano into Hernandez.
Months of Joe Smith into Pannone and Taylor.
Months of Loup into Waguespack.
Biagini was a waiver pick up.
Oh into Wall+
Minor league signing of a Sogard into 2 pitchers.

[billy_hoyle]

You guys haven’t read vaff87’s post if you think he is a Shapiro/Atkins apologist. See what was said a few years ago. Vaff is fair with their evaluation of the FO, both positive and negative posts which is what fair evaluations are about.

If people truly understood baseball, rebuilding, trade markets and ownership pressures you would be able to evaluate fairly and without bias.

This management has done a lot rebuilding the front office, coaching staff and adding young talent to the franchise and too me that is the most important part. They haven’t done a great job marketing, understanding the market (both trade and city/country) and perhaps in trade but only time will truly tell. In terms of selling Donaldson, Osuna and Giles; a lot has to do with bad luck - injuries and a DV case.

I hope they are given 2020 and 2021 to see their core through and let their prospects and trades materialize.

Outside of bichette, the groshans/Kloff draft and hopefully gurriel this management team has left an obscene amount of surplus value on the table. Even if things work out, the opportunity costs are huge.

Bad luck is just a softer way of saying, lacked foresight.

So they should have saw the future of Donaldson’s injuries, Giles injury, Tepera’s injury, Galvis having back spasms the day before the deadline and Osuna having legal troubles? Like it or not, you cant control everything when you are dealing with humans.

I challenge you to name a front office that had zero issues or problems. You can always point to missteps and leaving surplus value on the table with any front office.

I’ll make the argument that the only two players that kept value after they left the Jays were EE and Donaldson, everyone else got worse. And with EE we got a compensation pick that was turned into Nate Pearson plus other assets.

As I said before, sometimes your players aren’t as good as you think especially in this new market (post-2016).

Only 2 moves I do differently is keeping Donaldson and give him the QO and holding onto Osuna until he built his value back up. But I understand why they wanted to deal Osuna. Donaldson, well that’s a different story.

There is definitely more than just Bichette, Groshans, Kloffenstein and Gurriel.

Pearson, Pardinho, Manoah, Kirk, Woods-Richardson, Biggio, Hiraldo, Martinez etc. This is a ridiculously young, cheap and cost effective core. That is huge.

The player development helped develop guys like Vladdy, Bichette, Pearson and Biggio. They took injured or underperforming prospects from the previous regime and turned them into something; Jansen, Borucki, Reid-Foley, Murphy, Tellez etc.

Sure they might have missed on Donaldson and/or Osuna and Happ. But they hit much better on smaller deals. If they were striking out on big and small deals then it would be a problem. But they are finding value and a lot of it for pretty much nothing.

Woodman into Diaz into Thornton.
Leone (waiver pickup) and Greene into Grichuk.
Hutch into Liriano, Ramirez and McGuire.
Months of Liriano into Hernandez.
Months of Joe Smith into Pannone and Taylor.
Months of Loup into Waguespack.
Biagini was a waiver pick up.
Oh into Wall+
Minor league signing of a Sogard into 2 pitchers.

We play in the AL East. It doesn't matter how many smaller deals you hit. In fact, if you're relying on smaller 'hits' to compete, then you're playing for third place in this division. This might be Ricciardi/Ash all over again. We need stars all over the diamond to compete.
As others have said, and you keep downplaying, we can't waste stars and turn them into marginal regulars. We will not compete in AL East with that strategy. Most people stating this axiom are speaking from 23 years of experience. We frittered away Doc's prime, Delgados prime, Green's, Wells' etc.

We had stars, just too many Lyle Overbays ( decent but not star players).


Further, why are you listing off all our minor league prospects? Every team has prospects, every GM will pick their Kloffensteins and their Kirk's. The draft happens every year, this isn't something to boast about. It's a zero sum game; it only matters how many high end prospects you have relative to other teams. So when we have three prospects in the top 100, in a 30 team league, well big deal, you should have three players on that list. That's a normal percentage.

Now, if we had San Diego or Tampa Bay's or the Astros number of high end prospects, then we can boast and dream of better days. As it stands, this is just silly IMO.

[vaff87]

Outside of bichette, the groshans/Kloff draft and hopefully gurriel this management team has left an obscene amount of surplus value on the table. Even if things work out, the opportunity costs are huge.

Bad luck is just a softer way of saying, lacked foresight.

So they should have saw the future of Donaldson’s injuries, Giles injury, Tepera’s injury, Galvis having back spasms the day before the deadline and Osuna having legal troubles? Like it or not, you cant control everything when you are dealing with humans.

I challenge you to name a front office that had zero issues or problems. You can always point to missteps and leaving surplus value on the table with any front office.

I’ll make the argument that the only two players that kept value after they left the Jays were EE and Donaldson, everyone else got worse. And with EE we got a compensation pick that was turned into Nate Pearson plus other assets.

As I said before, sometimes your players aren’t as good as you think especially in this new market (post-2016).

Only 2 moves I do differently is keeping Donaldson and give him the QO and holding onto Osuna until he built his value back up. But I understand why they wanted to deal Osuna. Donaldson, well that’s a different story.

There is definitely more than just Bichette, Groshans, Kloffenstein and Gurriel.

Pearson, Pardinho, Manoah, Kirk, Woods-Richardson, Biggio, Hiraldo, Martinez etc. This is a ridiculously young, cheap and cost effective core. That is huge.

The player development helped develop guys like Vladdy, Bichette, Pearson and Biggio. They took injured or underperforming prospects from the previous regime and turned them into something; Jansen, Borucki, Reid-Foley, Murphy, Tellez etc.

Sure they might have missed on Donaldson and/or Osuna and Happ. But they hit much better on smaller deals. If they were striking out on big and small deals then it would be a problem. But they are finding value and a lot of it for pretty much nothing.

Woodman into Diaz into Thornton.
Leone (waiver pickup) and Greene into Grichuk.
Hutch into Liriano, Ramirez and McGuire.
Months of Liriano into Hernandez.
Months of Joe Smith into Pannone and Taylor.
Months of Loup into Waguespack.
Biagini was a waiver pick up.
Oh into Wall+
Minor league signing of a Sogard into 2 pitchers.

We play in the AL East. It doesn't matter how many smaller deals you hit. In fact, if you're relying on smaller 'hits' to compete, then you're playing for third place in this division. This might be Ricciardi/Ash all over again. We need stars all over the diamond to compete.
As others have said, and you keep downplaying, we can't waste stars and turn them into marginal regulars. We will not compete in AL East with that strategy. Most people stating this axiom are speaking from 23 years of experience. We frittered away Doc's prime, Delgados prime, Green's, Wells' etc.

We had stars, just too many Lyle Overbays ( decent but not star players).


Further, why are you listing off all our minor league prospects? Every team has prospects, every GM will pick their Kloffensteins and their Kirk's. The draft happens every year, this isn't something to boast about. It's a zero sum game; it only matters how many high end prospects you have relative to other teams. So when we have three prospects in the top 100, in a 30 team league, well big deal, you should have three players on that list. That's a normal percentage.

Now, if we had San Diego or Tampa Bay's or the Astros number of high end prospects, then we can boast and dream of better days. As it stands, this is just silly IMO.

You should maybe look up how they acquired guys like Corey Kluber, Mike Clevinger and Jose Ramirez when they were in Cleveland.

[I_Like_Dirt]

We play in the AL East. It doesn't matter how many smaller deals you hit. In fact, if you're relying on smaller 'hits' to compete, then you're playing for third place in this division. This might be Ricciardi/Ash all over again. We need stars all over the diamond to compete.
As others have said, and you keep downplaying, we can't waste stars and turn them into marginal regulars. We will not compete in AL East with that strategy. Most people stating this axiom are speaking from 23 years of experience. We frittered away Doc's prime, Delgados prime, Green's, Wells' etc.


...


Now, if we had San Diego or Tampa Bay's or the Astros number of high end prospects, then we can boast and dream of better days. As it stands, this is just silly IMO.

The last Jays playoff team was largely built on smaller hits. Bautista and EE were the definition of smaller hits that turned into massive home runs. You don't know where talent is going to come from until it shows up.

The problem about wasting stars wasn't that the Jays wasted them in trades by turning them into marginal regulars, it's that they turned them from stars into old, usually injured, has-beens by waiting things out to try to buoy season ticket sales which seems to be Rogers' preference every damn time.

As for frittering away the prime of stars, the worst thing the Jays could be doing right now would be paying for players who won't be good when their younger players actually are in their prime. That would be a disaster. As for having a farm team like Tampa or San Diego, no team is trading that kind of quality for anyone anymore - and absolutely nobody was going to give that up for Sanchez or Biagini. It just isn't happening outside of the Chris Archer trade where the team had 4(!) years of control remaining and was still probably an argument against teams making moves like that. The Jays are actually getting pretty close to that point anyway, though. This idea that they need to somehow "win" in trades in ways that no other team is "winning" makes no sense. What the Jays do need to do is be patient, pick up good prospects both in the draft and whenever they can, and resist the urge to try to rush things while costing future assets. They've been reasonably good so far in that respect. The amount of hatred the front office is getting makes it crystal clear why Rogers tends to rush things and try to finish 3rd or 4th and calls it good enough, though.

[phillipmike]

We play in the AL East. It doesn't matter how many smaller deals you hit. In fact, if you're relying on smaller 'hits' to compete, then you're playing for third place in this division. This might be Ricciardi/Ash all over again. We need stars all over the diamond to compete.
As others have said, and you keep downplaying, we can't waste stars and turn them into marginal regulars. We will not compete in AL East with that strategy. Most people stating this axiom are speaking from 23 years of experience. We frittered away Doc's prime, Delgados prime, Green's, Wells' etc.

We had stars, just too many Lyle Overbays ( decent but not star players).

Cant bring up how bad JP and Ash were, then say "every team has prospects" because its clear Ash and JP couldnt manage a minor league system well. Its important to draft and develop and hit on prospects.

Ash hit on guys in early rounds but for the most part outside of that he didnt. JP barely hit at all.

Notable Draft picks with 10+ bWAR:
Gord Ash: Roy Halladay (1st round pick), Casey Blake (7th round), Vernon Wells (1st), Michael Young (5th), Orlando Hudson (43rd), Alex Rios (1st), Reed Johnson (17th round)
JP Riccardi: Aaron Hill (1st), Shaun Marcum (3rd), Adam Lind (3rd), Yan Gomes (10th), Jake Marisnick (3rd)

The game is shifting to a much younger game. This management group is hitting on drafting, IFA signings and developing. That is huge and it goes unnoticed because the casually fan doesnt know the game has shifted. They are still evaluating trades based on the pre-2016 market.

Trades still take time to develop but they probably lost on a handful of trades, like 3-4 but won on others with a pretty great draft record early on. Cant be perfect all the time. AA lost a lot of trades over the years - many of them big ones too; Halladay, Hill, Marlins deal , Yan Gomes, Napoli, and Dickey. But he did a lot more good that helped the team.

Further, why are you listing off all our minor league prospects? Every team has prospects, every GM will pick their Kloffensteins and their Kirk's. The draft happens every year, this isn't something to boast about. It's a zero sum game; it only matters how many high end prospects you have relative to other teams. So when we have three prospects in the top 100, in a 30 team league, well big deal, you should have three players on that list. That's a normal percentage.

Now, if we had San Diego or Tampa Bay's or the Astros number of high end prospects, then we can boast and dream of better days. As it stands, this is just silly IMO.

Because minor league prospects is how you become good and stay good. Its silly to discount the biggest, most efficient and most important tool to building a contender - drafting prospects. The Jays have had one of the best systems in the league and they continue to pump out more prospects. Something previous regimes missed on and if we did hit, we traded them too soon.

Its funny how you say the Jays dont have high end prospects when just 5 months ago they were ranked 5th in baseball ahead of Houston and just behind Tampa and San Diego. Tampa has done a great job year in and year out - they get respect from me. San Diego as well but they have had a head start rebuilding for almost 5 years and the Jays didnt truly start until the 2018 deadline and we have been in the top 5 and currently sit in the top 10 and that doesnt include Vladdy, Jansen, Biggio, Gurriel, Thronton, Borucki etc. Thats the signs of a strong system.

2018 Pre season - ranked 9th: https://www.mlb.com/news/top-10-farm-systems-ranking-by-mlb-pipeline-c267360666
2019 mid season - ranked 5th: https://www.mlb.com/news/top-10-farm-systems-in-mlb-c288576958
2019 pre season - ranked 5th: https://www.mlb.com/news/top-10-farm-systems-in-mlb
2019 mid season - ranked 10th: https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-farm-system-rankings-2019

For argument sake - we made the playoffs like Baltimore did in 2016. They were an old, expensive core and they tried to compete like the Jays did in 2017 and 2018 only to finally start their rebuild at the 2018 deadline like the Jays.

This is how Baltimore ranked;

2018 Pre season - not ranked: https://www.mlb.com/news/top-10-farm-systems-ranking-by-mlb-pipeline-c267360666
2019 mid season - not ranked: https://www.mlb.com/news/top-10-farm-systems-in-mlb-c288576958
2019 pre season - not ranked: https://www.mlb.com/news/top-10-farm-systems-in-mlb
2019 mid season - ranked 13th: https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-farm-system-rankings-2019

Currently Baltimore has 12 players on their active roster that were claimed off waivers, purchased on taken in the rule 5 draft. Jays have a young, cheap, exciting core with more coming in the system and Baltimore is starting cast offs and has an average system only because they had the first overall pick in 2019. Their top 4 prospects were all 1st round picks. That's a rebuild that will take some time. Focusing too many on the negatives than the positives.

[phillipmike]

Read on Twitter

[Ado05]

Just a paper transaction if people are wondering why.

[BigLeagueChew]

More on Fisher's lefty vs righty splits, is something he acklowedges and is working on.

“Against a righty, sometimes with the ball always coming in to me it’s easier to get big and pull the ball,” he says. “My strength has always been using the whole field.”

Fisher’s big-league splits - small sample or no - back up that assertion.

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/blue-jays-derek-fisher-might-be-a-rare-lefthanded-southpaw-killer-125130777.html

[Schad]

Watching Sanchez tonight (it's a very Aaron Sanchez start: three clean innings, lost the feel for his breaking ball, got clubbed when he had to throw more fastballs), it's really noticeable how much his velocity has dropped. He's down 2 mph in August on his two-seamer and about 1.3 on his four-seamer from July (about more than 2.5 mph compared to April)...he has history in terms of declining velo as the season progresses, but they might also be asking him to dial it back to stay in the vicinity of the plate.

[BigLeagueChew]

Watching Sanchez tonight (it's a very Aaron Sanchez start: three clean innings, lost the feel for his breaking ball, got clubbed when he had to throw more fastballs), it's really noticeable how much his velocity has dropped. He's down 2 mph in August on his two-seamer and about 1.3 on his four-seamer from July (about more than 2.5 mph compared to April)...he has history in terms of declining velo as the season progresses, but they might also be asking him to dial it back to stay in the vicinity of the plate.

Four home runs against right now by Sanchez, whatever they're trying they should try something else. Oakland is good too though, wanted to see him against tougher teams with them.

[vaff87]

I was told Sanchez is an “absolute beast”.

[Schad]

Four home runs against right now whatever they're trying they should try something else.

He was pretty good early; quality strikes with his CB, mixing in some change-ups, locating his fastball decently enough. Then he just straight-up lost his curveball, and Sanchez without his curveball working is a launching pad. Spent a couple innings missing the plate with it by large margins (threw 10 CBs in the 4th and 5th: nine balls, one hit foul), and the next inning he threw two that just lazily middle-middled and got hit a combined 18 miles.

The standard Aaron Sanchez experience. I'm going to guess that Houston has not, in fact, fixed him.

[BigLeagueChew]

Four home runs against right now whatever they're trying they should try something else.

He was pretty good early; quality strikes with his CB, mixing in some change-ups, locating his fastball decently enough. Then he just straight-up lost his curveball, and Sanchez without his curveball working is a launching pad. Spent a couple innings missing the plate with it by large margins (threw 10 CBs in the 4th and 5th: nine balls, one hit foul), and the next inning he threw two that just lazily middle-middled and got hit a combined 18 miles.

The standard Aaron Sanchez experience. I'm going to guess that Houston has not, in fact, fixed him.

Apparently they want to use Peacock in the bullpen whenever he returns as he's only pitched 2-3 innings bursts in the minors right now. Either they think Sanchez is better or Peacock is on a limit of some sort.

"We want to make sure he's fully ready to be integrated into the bullpen and I can use him at my discretion the day he gets back and activated," Hinch said.

https://www.chron.com/sports/astros/article/Astros-Brad-Peacock-headed-more-minor-league-rehab-14301560.php

[BigLeagueChew]

Third option might be Peacock returning to rotation after a few more bad Sanchez starts. Also, let's trade for Chapman.

[Schad]

They may be inclined to leave Peacock in the 'pen to ensure that he's healthy for the playoffs...they have a pretty sizable lead over Oakland. Might change direction in a hurry if they got swept in this series however.