Time for Rogers to open vault to get Jays to next level

[TR50]

I have a feeling that Avengers post may have been sarcastic.

Why would it be? A Lind/E5 platoon will give you roughly league average production at 1B, you don't have to a superstar there to take down the Yankees and Red Sox, what you need is a beter overall team and we're not gonna be that with Prince Fielder alone.

I want Rogers to open up their wallets more than anyone here, they also have to do it smartly. Throwing bad conracts isn't just bad business, it also hurts the onfield product. Managers and GM's feel the need to play certain guys simply because they make a lot of money and teams are reluctant to getting rid of dead weight(see Vernon Wells, Alex Rios, Adam Dunn, Scott Kazmir etc etc).

Throwing money at the players i mentioned will cost more than Fielder but it will give you a much better return.

I agree with you there, that we obviously have to be wise with spending. What I disagree with though, being in the AL East, having league average production from a power position, 1B, won't get you by. Also, it's not my money, plus, I think Fielder's production would be fine, and I'm pretty sure, their would still be dough to spend after him too.

If AA opens up the wallet for Prince/Pujols, I'll be ecstatic, even if they make a run and fail, I'd still be happy. As long as we see that they want to see us compete, ASAP as well without throwing our future off the cliff.

[Avenger]

Well, that scenario (Darvish, Johnson, Jackson) would be much more valuable than Fielder alone. Not to say that's a reasonable scenario or anything.

A rotation of Romero, Morrow, Alvarez, Cecil, Perez/McGowan/Drabek/other prospects could easily be mocked at this point too.

Its moer reasonable and realistic than throwing 200 million at Fielder. Kelly Johnson is our own Free Agent that we are very likely to resign, we know AA is already interested in Darvish and with the way Jackson is pitching Boras won't be able to find a good long term deal so we could easily get him on a 1 year 15 million contract or smething in that neighborhood

[TR50]

I have a feeling that Avengers post may have been sarcastic.

Just for kicks, if I were asked though, which of the following:

A year of Lind at 1B
A year of EE at 1B
A year of Lind/EE at 1B (50/50)
A year for Prince Fielder at 1B (200 Million or so)

I know which one I like best.

too bad what i really said was

A year for Prince Fielder at 1B (200 Million or so)

OR

A year of Lind/EE at 1B (50/50) AND Yu Darvish, Kelly Johnson and Edwin Jackson(and probably a top notch bullpen) for roughly 200 million combined

I don't think signing Kelly Johnson would be that difficult. If AA wants him here next year and on, I'm pretty sure he could get that done quite easily. I also have a feeling a guy like Jackson wouldn't be in our plans or someone AA might look at. That might be due to the stigma that we actually traded him away. I would find it ironic if he ever did pitch for the Jays.

I however think that Darvish can be, but why not him and Fielder? I don't think it's that far out there, that if Rogers can open up their wallets, it would and/or could be for both. Obviously a lot would have to go right for us.

[jrsmith]

Apparently signing Fielder while still being below 100m payroll will completely handcuff us from signing kelly johnson + any other FA. Toronto fans and their loser mentalities

[Avenger]

I agree with you there, that we obviously have to be wise with spending. What I disagree with though, being in the AL East, having league average production from a power position, 1B, won't get you by. Also, it's not my money, plus, I think Fielder's production would be fine, and I'm pretty sure, their would still be dough to spend after him too.

that's interesting given the fact that the Tampa Bay Rays made the playoffs, heck they won the AL East in 2010 with Carlos Pena hitting .196/.325/.407

And when i said league average i meant league average production relative to other 1B. Hendrix already pointed out what an EE/Lind platoon would look like and they'll be more than fine and easily enough for us to win the AL east as long as other holes are filled(2B, DH, LF, #2 starter, #3 starter)

[jrsmith]

Obviously a lot would have to go right for us.

Actually we wouldnt need the stars to align for us to get Darvish and Fielder. Its called offering the most money and seeing if they accept, which in most cases they do.

And guess what, this team will still be well below the red sox, and not even close to the yankees payroll.

[Hendrix]

Why would it be? A Lind/E5 platoon will give you roughly league average production at 1B, you don't have to a superstar there to take down the Yankees and Red Sox, what you need is a beter overall team and we're not gonna be that with Prince Fielder alone.

I want Rogers to open up their wallets more than anyone here, they also have to do it smartly. Throwing bad conracts isn't just bad business, it also hurts the onfield product. Managers and GM's feel the need to play certain guys simply because they make a lot of money and teams are reluctant to getting rid of dead weight(see Vernon Wells, Alex Rios, Adam Dunn, Scott Kazmir etc etc).

Throwing money at the players i mentioned will cost more than Fielder but it will give you a much better return.

too bad what i really said was

A year for Prince Fielder at 1B (200 Million or so)

OR

A year of Lind/EE at 1B (50/50) AND Yu Darvish, Kelly Johnson and Edwin Jackson(and probably a top notch bullpen) for roughly 200 million combined

Exactly. Lets say for argumetns sake that Lind/EE can give you something like 3 WAR between them by platooning 1b does it really make sense to throw $200mm at Fielder so that he can up our 1b roduction to 4 WAR? That doesn't seem like an efficient use of money to me, and I think we could get a lotmore improvment at other weak spots by utilizing that money other places. I'm all for Rogers shelling out tons of cash. But if they do it inefficiently it's not going to help us enough. We need to spend wisely and maximize the impact of that spending to have a shot in this division. Fielder just doesn't seem like an awesome buy to me.

[TR50]

I agree with you there, that we obviously have to be wise with spending. What I disagree with though, being in the AL East, having league average production from a power position, 1B, won't get you by. Also, it's not my money, plus, I think Fielder's production would be fine, and I'm pretty sure, their would still be dough to spend after him too.

that's interesting given the fact that the Tampa Bay Rays made the playoffs, heck they won the AL East in 2010 with Carlos Pena hitting .196/.325/.407

And when i said league average i meant league average production relative to other 1B. Hendrix already pointed out what an EE/Lind platoon would look like and they'll be more than fine and easily enough for us to win the AL east as long as other holes are filled(2B, DH, LF, #2 starter, #3 starter)

I think that is a testament to their far superior pitching and not to mention, Pena did smack 28 home runs on a team that had more than 3 players capable of getting on base consistently.

Also, the Lind/EE platoon looks decent on paper, but how would that actually translate after 162 games? I think their is a lot of uncertainty there, whereas, I'm pretty sure you can pencil in a good 30/100 season from Fielder.

And one last thing, the Rays did make it to the post season that year, but that was it. They also did not win the world series, and now Pena isn't even there. We can look at the years prior to that and clearly see what teams have made the playoffs.

I'm not saying though, break the bank, throw everything at Fielder. If we do, then I'd totally be happy to see that, but if we don't I won't lose any sleep either. I'm pretty confident in what AA will or won't do and I'd be willing to wait and see what exactly he does, and accept it for whatever reasons. He knows whats best, and I'm sure he's had this debate too.

Unfortunately, it's on him to come up with the right answer, and I'm confident he will.

[jrsmith]

for us to win the AL east as long as other holes are filled(2B, DH, LF, #2 starter, #3 starter)

Or you could sign an elite bat in fielder and have 1st base secured, and bautista rightfully protected.

DH/LF could be platooned by Lind/E5/Thames hitting in their rightful places lower in the order.

Kelly Johnson can easily be resigned, Fileder or any other FA signing affecting it is completely ludicrous.

And then you go out, spend and get a good #2.

Signing an elite bat is not the end all for every other hole on the team, IF they want to compete. Stop the bull.

[Weems]

We have different interpretations of "spending". I don't think it means paying more than all of the Yankees, Red Sox, Rangers, Angels, Cubs, Cards, Brewers, Nats, and whoever else gets involved on these guys. And the stars definitely do have to align if we are to outspend every team on both Fielder and Darvish. I don't believe for a second that we have the deepest pockets.

[Michael Bradley]

I am as iffy on Fielder's long-term sustainability as anyone, but there is no way I want Lind/EE as the 1B on this team next season. If you want to platoon them at DH after trading for Joey Votto, then that is a different story, but we better have another superstar somewhere on the team if Lind/EE is in the cards for next season.

Lind's OPS against RHP per year since 2008 has been .781 (.321 OBP), .992 (.378 OBP), .829 (.327 OBP), and .774 (.305 OBP) respectively. Lyle Overbay was a better overall player than Lind, and almost everyone (me included) wanted an upgrade over Lyle at 1B.

I am all for signing Darvish. That is the type of risk the Jays have to take some times because they are not going to be able to get the Sabathia and Lee types in free agency. It is a unique situation. I am a little reluctant to spend big money on Fielder, but if the option is Fielder or Lind/EE (Darvish being out of the equation altogether), then I'm going to have to go with Fielder. Lind is barely an MLB calibre hitter given his defensive situation (bad LF, average at best 1B). The Jays need an upgrade there. Badly.

[jrsmith]

The stars aligning would mean it would take some type of miracle to sign both of them. In reality it would just take Rogers opening up their wallet. The teams guaranteed payroll for next season is ridiculously low. So signing both of them without approaching red sox/Yankees territory is also reality.

Now if you think Rogers being in the low 100m territory for payroll would mean all the stars have aligned, that's a different issue all together. This is the Rogers should open the vault thread.

If you want a let's take it slow, wait for our prospects to develop, platoon 2 scrubs at 1st in the al east, waste bautista + Escobar for absolutely nothing arguments you can just pull up the "5year plans" that this franchise recycles over and over. I'm personally a tad bored and too familiar with them.

[S.W.A.N]

Personally from the games that I have watched this year, and following along here and checking box scores, the area where I would be spending my money on would be the top end of the pitching rotation...

[Wo1verine]

With the SP's available on the market this year, Id defiantly rather use what ever it takes to sign an elite bat like Fielder then spend probably 100MM on Wilson or Darvish. If Rogers gives enough funds to sign both great, but if not give me the elite bat any day over either on of the top two SP's available.

[There There]

for us to win the AL east as long as other holes are filled(2B, DH, LF, #2 starter, #3 starter)

Or you could sign an elite bat in fielder and have 1st base secured, and bautista rightfully protected.

DH/LF could be platooned by Lind/E5/Thames hitting in their rightful places lower in the order.

Kelly Johnson can easily be resigned, Fileder or any other FA signing affecting it is completely ludicrous.

And then you go out, spend and get a good #2.

Signing an elite bat is not the end all for every other hole on the team, IF they want to compete. Stop the bull.

No kidding... Johnson and a rebuilt bullpen should be nothing more than a blip on the overall payroll.... So if the option is Darvish and Jackson or Fielder, the answer should be a no brainer

Look at the garbage the Yankees and Red Sox are sending to the mound most nights... I would have no qualms sending out any combination of Romero/Morrow/Cecil/Alvarez/Drabek/McGowan/Carreno, with guys like Jenkins/Molina/Hutch/Deck looming as potential mid-season options to fill out the back end of the rotation...

If the math works out that Darvish is basically covered by the extra revenue, great, go after him also

But this team needs real protection for Bautista more than anything else... That has to be priority number one or else we are basically conceeding another season

[Schad]

Bingo. We can piece together a pretty solid pitching staff...indeed, amidst all of the talk of our awful pitching, we carried an adjusted ERA at league-average entering today. Not saying that we can throw out scrubs and hope to compete, but the basis is there.

But to get to 90+ wins in this division, we need to be able to absolutely murder the baseball. Why? Look at Yankees Stadium. Look at Fenway. Look at the Trop. Hell, look at the Dome. All parks that play as very strong hitters' parks, and to win in such stadia, you need to have slugging up and down the lineup. Yet we've averaged 3.6 runs a game at Fenway, 3.8 a game at Yankees Stadium, and a woeful 2.7 at the Trop.

Add a monstrous left-handed bat behind Bautista, a Darvish if we can, and patch the 'pen, we're on our way to something. Sell out on pitching and we're still swimming largely **** if we right our record against those divisional opponents...we're fourteen games below .500 against the Yanks, Sox and Rays; against the rest of the league, we're 55-43, which is a 91 win pace.

[Shimso]

This may be a dumb post, but after Bautista was signed to a very reasonable contract, if the Jays go all in and throw a ton of cash at Darvish, Pujols/Fielder, etc. then isn't there the potential for Jose to become a bit disgruntled?

[BigLeagueChew]

Wouldn't he be more upset if we did nothing and signed mediocre players? I would think, given his past struggles, he is quite happy with his contract considering he was a bench player most of his mlb career. He had a chance to play here, likes it here and now it's time for the next step.

Would Bautista rather have Adam Lind hitting behind him @ $5 mil or Pujols @ $25 mil. Pujols has 11 straight seasons with 30+ home runs and 10 straight seasons with 100+ RBI(15 rbi's away from 100 this year). Career BA of .329. He is no doubt a hall of famer so I doubt Bautista would upset if we signed him for that much when Pujols deserves it.

If we did sign Pujols, we have the chance of having 3 players with over 100 RBI's next year (bautista,lawrie, pujols)

Escobar
Johnson
Bautista
Pujols
Lawrie
Rasmus
Encarnacion
Arencibia
Thames

[Schad]

This may be a dumb post, but after Bautista was signed to a very reasonable contract, if the Jays go all in and throw a ton of cash at Darvish, Pujols/Fielder, etc. then isn't there the potential for Jose to become a bit disgruntled?

Very much doubt it. For one thing, there's not much that he or the Jays could do about it; the contract is set. The Jays could come up with a super-creative way of conveying more money to him, like tacking on a sixth year at $50m, but he'll still make the same $14m each of the four years following this one. Baseball players also seem to accept as given the fact that a contract set is set...you never hear the likes of Longoria bitching that he signed a wildly below-market contract*, despite the fact that he's making less than a platoon catcher on the roster.

Second, Jose seems to have some perspective; he knows that he's making good coin, and probably wouldn't have gotten in if not for the Jays. And even though his salary is quite low this year even compared to the remainder of his deal, his 2011 salary equals the amount made over the seven preceding years of his career.

And finally, given that he i) can't change his salary, and ii) isn't making bad money, even on that below-market deal, I'm guessing that he probably would be pretty happy to make his measly $14m on a winning team.



*He's making $2m this year, less than their platoon catcher; as this would be his first year of arb, he'd probably make $7m without the contract, easy. Conservative estimate is that if the Rays exercise his '15-'16 options, and they will, he probably cost himself at least $40m-50m over the length of the deal compared to what he would have gotten through three years arbitration + three years of free agency. I'm sorry that I'm now footnoting posts and I realize that footnoting forum posts makes me look like a douchebag**, but it's either this or confounding eight-sentence parenthetical sidebars BECAUSE I CANNOT STAY WITH ONE THOUGHT, DAMMIT.



**More of a douchebag.

[Michael Bradley]

The Jays have about $39 million guaranteed committed to the MLB salary next season (Lind, Escobar, Bautista, Davis, Teahen, Romero, and Hechavarria). The only arbitration eligible players will be Rasmus, Morrow, McGowan, Janssen, Villanueva, and Litsch. The team will be able to have a boatload of pre-arbitration players making nothing if they intend to go cheap in certain areas (Lawrie, Arencibia, and Snider/Thames for position players, and Cecil, Alvarez, Carreno, etc, in the rotation/bullpen). Encarnacion has a $3.5M option and Kelly Johnson is likely the only impending FA the team has any intention on trying to bring back (unless they want to take a one year stab at Francisco improving his numbers next year).

In other words, the Jays have more than enough wiggle room to add Albert Pujols and Yu Darvish (for example) and still come out with the 2012 payroll below $100M (depending on how they want to count the Darvish negotiating cost if it comes to that). The team spent 2009-11 doing nothing but shedding the MLB payroll while the Canadian dollar has improved. There is no excuse for them not to go for the jugular this off-season. The worst contract currently on the team is Teahen and he has only a year left. Second worst is Adam Lind and he only has two more guaranteed years (and I'm sure dumping him wouldn't be too difficult). Forget Fielder. Go for Pujols. The financial situation + the amount of cheap controllable players on the roster makes this the best time to spend on elite talent.