The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread

[OakleyDokely]

It's not about age, it's about productivity.

It's not about productivity, it's about price for production. Guys in their allotted team control are the most likely to offer both; players acquired in free agency generally offer production at an exorbitant price...and as they hit their declines, often offer neither.

Value is found many different ways.

[Schad]

It's not about age, it's about productivity.

It's not about productivity, it's about price for production. Guys in their allotted team control are the most likely to offer both; players acquired in free agency generally offer production at an exorbitant price...and as they hit their declines, often offer neither.

Value is found many different ways.

No, it's really only applied in one way: get players as good as possible as cheap as possible, because no matter one's budget, that's how you build a team. Not one single team in baseball has the finances to build a championship team at free agent prices...not the Dodgers, not the Yankees, not the Jays in anyone's greatest fantasies where Rogers opens the vault.

[changes]

So no grass now huh?

It's like Shapiro/Rogers are doing everything they can to make me not want to go to a Blue Jays game.
I seriously don't want to spend a dollar on this organization but I want to support the players.

More pennies saved in probably their last year of contention. Success.

[OakleyDokely]

So no grass now huh?

It's like Shapiro/Rogers are doing everything they can to make me not want to go to a Blue Jays game.
I seriously don't want to spend a dollar on this organization but I want to support the players.

They are like the George Costanza's of Baseball. Do the opposite...of what the fans want.

Maybe we can have fitted hat day though.

[The_Hater]

When good teams are close, they trade prospects for PROVEN players.

Of course they do. But if the well runs dry, then one season later you're stuck trying to put 4/5's of a starting pitching staff together through much more expensive free agents without ownership increasing the budget much to help with that. Don't make the Price trade and the Jays would have Norris and Boyd as rotation pieces for next season AND have had a lot more free-agent money to possibly make a run at a stud FA pitcher rather than 3 guys in the $10-12 million range.

AS for Cueto, KC didn't even try to re-sign him after they gave up that ransom of prospects for him. WTF!?!?!

Don't make Price trade, maybe they don't win the division and they are in a one game playoff instead.

Absolutely. No doubt this could have happened and it's the main reason I still support AA in making this deal.

But you can't then turn around and complain that there wasn't enough money in the 2016 payroll to pay for Price and 3 other quality starting pitchers. Or complain that the new GM couldn't pull a rabbit out of the hat and make it all fit. The decision AA made at the deadline didn't just effect 2015, it effected the rotation depth for 2016 and beyond as well.

[OakleyDokely]

It's not about productivity, it's about price for production. Guys in their allotted team control are the most likely to offer both; players acquired in free agency generally offer production at an exorbitant price...and as they hit their declines, often offer neither.

Value is found many different ways.

No, it's really only applied in one way: get players as good as possible as cheap as possible, because no matter one's budget, that's how you build a team. Not one single team in baseball has the finances to build a championship team at free agent prices...not the Dodgers, not the Yankees, not the Jays in anyone's greatest fantasies where Rogers opens the vault.

Sure, you need some cheap young talent, but no team has a roster full of it.

For example, within the constraints of a budget, value can be found in some players with large contracts that teams want to dump for literally nothing of value (personnel) to shed salary. Big contract cost, but cheap acquisition cost and impactful on the field. Teams that can spend a little more, can take advantage of this.

[OakleyDokely]

Of course they do. But if the well runs dry, then one season later you're stuck trying to put 4/5's of a starting pitching staff together through much more expensive free agents without ownership increasing the budget much to help with that. Don't make the Price trade and the Jays would have Norris and Boyd as rotation pieces for next season AND have had a lot more free-agent money to possibly make a run at a stud FA pitcher rather than 3 guys in the $10-12 million range.

AS for Cueto, KC didn't even try to re-sign him after they gave up that ransom of prospects for him. WTF!?!?!

Don't make Price trade, maybe they don't win the division and they are in a one game playoff instead.

Absolutely. No doubt this could have happened and it's the main reason I still support AA in making this deal.

But you can't then turn around and complain that there wasn't enough money in the 2016 payroll to pay for Price and 3 other quality starting pitchers. Or complain that the new GM couldn't pull a rabbit out of the hat and make it all fit. The decision AA made at the deadline didn't just effect 2015, it effected the rotation depth for 2016 and beyond as well.

I don't like how Shapiro has allocated his funds this season. He spent what he had on low potential, unproven, back of the rotation pitchers. That has little to do with Rogers being cheap.

[Schad]

Sure, you need some cheap young talent, but no team has a roster full of it.

For example, within the constraints of a budget, value can be found in some players with large contracts that teams want to dump for literally nothing of value (personnel) to shed salary. Big contract cost, but cheap acquisition cost and impactful on the field. Teams that can spend a little more, can take advantage of this.

For a time. More than a couple of those players and you are presented with an opportunity cost: namely, dollars that cannot be spent elsewhere.

And 'some' is a pretty wide range between none and all. But one thing is always certain: the more players you have making pennies and producing well, the more guys with big contracts you can afford. Because we shed a bunch of rather good players who'd still be making $500k, we have been forced to hit the market to fill that hole. And because we have had to fill so many holes in free agency, we cannot buy at the top of the market (and we may have great difficulty retaining our own free agents in a year).

[OakleyDokely]

Sure, you need some cheap young talent, but no team has a roster full of it.

For example, within the constraints of a budget, value can be found in some players with large contracts that teams want to dump for literally nothing of value (personnel) to shed salary. Big contract cost, but cheap acquisition cost and impactful on the field. Teams that can spend a little more, can take advantage of this.

For a time. More than a couple of those players and you are presented with an opportunity cost: namely, dollars that cannot be spent elsewhere.

And 'some' is a pretty wide range between none and all. But one thing is always certain: the more players you have making pennies and producing well, the more guys with big contracts you can afford. Because we shed a bunch of rather good players who'd still be making $500k, we have been forced to hit the market to fill that hole. And because we have had to fill so many holes in free agency, we cannot buy at the top of the market (and we may have great difficulty retaining our own free agents in a year).

Rogers treats this team like a mid market club. They will likely spend somewhere around the middle of baseball, maybe slightly above that (around 10-11ish overall). That gives them a little more flexibility than small market teams or even clubs like KC in terms of risk. They can take more chances in free agency, through trade. That being said, even a team like KC spent around 110 last year, which put them around the average I believe.

[Schad]

Rogers treats this team like a mid market club. They will likely spend somewhere in the middle of baseball, maybe slightly above that (around 10-11ish overall). That gives them a little more flexibility than small market teams or even clubs like KC in terms of risk. That being said, I believe KC spent around 110 last year, which put them around the average I believe.

What Rogers treats the team as should be bloody well known, and should be factored into all decision-making; making decisions as if they are not Rogers will never, ever work out in the long-term. My day planner does not include two hours walled off for orgies with the cast of Golden Girls for this very reason; plan based upon observable reality, not an idealized fantasy of what you'd want to happen.

[OakleyDokely]

Rogers treats this team like a mid market club. They will likely spend somewhere in the middle of baseball, maybe slightly above that (around 10-11ish overall). That gives them a little more flexibility than small market teams or even clubs like KC in terms of risk. That being said, I believe KC spent around 110 last year, which put them around the average I believe.

What Rogers treats the team as should be bloody well known, and should be factored into all decision-making; making decisions as if they are not Rogers will never, ever work out in the long-term. My day planner does not include two hours walled off for orgies with the cast of Golden Girls for this very reason; plan based upon observable reality, not an idealized fantasy of what you'd want to happen.

I think for the most part AA did that. He was very conservative during his first few years here. He built up the system that didn't have much when he took over. But when he saw opportunities to make a big move that could result in big things, he pounced. I don't disagree with that philosophy. You need to take chances sometimes.

[Schad]

I think for the most part AA did that. He was very conservative during his first few years here. He built up the system that didn't have much when he took over. But when he saw opportunities to make a big move that could result in big things, he pounced. I don't disagree with that philosophy. You need to take chances sometimes.

He did do that, and it worked for a year. But it also necessarily impacted our ability to compete this year and into the future, something a lot of people recognized at the time those deals were made. The result is that Shapiro had no really good options, because those bullets had already been fired.

[OakleyDokely]

I think for the most part AA did that. He was very conservative during his first few years here. He built up the system that didn't have much when he took over. But when he saw opportunities to make a big move that could result in big things, he pounced. I don't disagree with that philosophy. You need to take chances sometimes.

He did do that, and it worked for a year. But it also necessarily impacted our ability to compete this year and into the future, something a lot of people recognized at the time those deals were made. The result is that Shapiro had no really good options, because those bullets had already been fired.

I don't think people fully understand just how terrible the team AA took over was. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that it would take a few years to build the organization up into a true contender.

Shapiro had plenty of options. He spent over 40 million dollars on starting pitchers this offseason, none of whom are likely to be better than backend starters. He signed a backup 1st baseman to a 5 million dollar contract. He's going to give 7 million to an OF who only does 1 thing well, hit singles. These are decisions he's made. This is how he has allocated his funds. This is what I have a problem with.

[Schad]

I don't think people fully understand just how terrible the team AA took over was. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that it would take a few years to build the organization up into a true contender.

Not unreasonable at all...indeed, what many of us preferred was that we aim to take longer to build the team into a contender, because that offered a chance to build one that would contender for a much longer period of time. We're never, ever going to be a long-term contender thinking and building like the Yankees, because we're never, ever going to spend like the Yankees.

[OakleyDokely]

I don't think people fully understand just how terrible the team AA took over was. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that it would take a few years to build the organization up into a true contender.

Not unreasonable at all...indeed, what many of us preferred was that we aim to take longer to build the team into a contender, because that offered a chance to build one that would contender for a much longer period of time. We're never, ever going to be a long-term contender thinking and building like the Yankees, because we're never, ever going to spend like the Yankees.

AA didn't run this team like the Yankees. He built up his prospect base the first few years. Some of those prospects are currently playing for the Jays, others he used to add proven, controllable talent. The only big outlier really is Price who wasn't controllable.

[Randle McMurphy]

So no grass now huh?

It's like Shapiro/Rogers are doing everything they can to make me not want to go to a Blue Jays game.
I seriously don't want to spend a dollar on this organization but I want to support the players.

Beeston fed some bull**** on that issue for a while like a good soldier, but there was never going to be any grass and that has absolutely nothing to do with Shapiro. It would have cost Rogers too much for something the Jays don't need.

[OakleyDokely]

So no grass now huh?

It's like Shapiro/Rogers are doing everything they can to make me not want to go to a Blue Jays game.
I seriously don't want to spend a dollar on this organization but I want to support the players.

Beeston fed some bull**** on that issue for a while like a good soldier, but there was never going to be any grass and that has absolutely nothing to do with Shapiro. It would have cost Rogers too much for something the Jays don't need.

No Green at all. No cash or grass.

Rogers going to Rogers.

[polo007]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/LottOnBaseball/status/677616686640586754[/tweet]

[Randle McMurphy]

Everything is summed up nicely here MT.

I wonder if Shapiro realizes the degree of PR nightmare of which he's now stuck in the middle? Obviously at the time he was hired, AA was still here with the expectation that he'd sign an extension and the fanbase wasn't yet amped up to 1000% due the wild ride through September and the playoffs.

But you can also tell the fans that didn't really follow the team until some point in 2015, they're the ones that have put AA on a pedestal because he was a pretty middling GM before that. (I suspect that I liked AA better than 90% of the fanbase prior to the past season).

Like you said, he couldn't have picked a better time to leave. Shapiro is now in a no-win situation too. If the Jays have success and even win the World Series during the next couple of years, those will be AA's teams with Shapiro just along for the ride. Even if Happ, Chavez and whoever else is added to the roster going forward exceed all expectations. And if they fall, that will be Shaprio's fault for failing to sustain what AA had built.

He knows now, but there's no way he could have possibly known then. I'm also sure he doesn't give a ****. His job is to build a better baseball franchise and make money for Rogers while doing it, not appease a fanbase who hasn't given him a chance. There's no reason to think he can't do either of those even if he may never get the credit for it.

[Scott Hall]

So no grass now huh?

It's like Shapiro/Rogers are doing everything they can to make me not want to go to a Blue Jays game.
I seriously don't want to spend a dollar on this organization but I want to support the players.

Beeston fed some bull**** on that issue for a while like a good soldier, but there was never going to be any grass and that has absolutely nothing to do with Shapiro. It would have cost Rogers too much for something the Jays don't need.

Why don't they need grass?

Seems like Rogers likes to penny pinch on everything yet spend an insane amount on a moronic hockey TV deal.