Jays vs Angels

[jalenrose#5]

Lastings Milledge is a righty, and our OF is pretty decent right now. I'm more PO'ed that JP was offered Penny/Kemp for Wells and he balked.

Also, Santos is not up here because his bat/glove stinks....look at the stats, he's hitting well below .200 (.191), and he's got 7 errors in 13 games @ SS. There's no way he's getting called up until he finds himself.

But I do agree, Diaz has to come up soon...I'm starting to get fed up with ground out/pop out Zaun....he's toast.

[Modern_epic]

I didn't mean an ACTUAL lefty shortstop, I meant the gap needed to be filled in those areas (Lefty and speedy). Isn't Lasting Milledge lefty? They could get him to play outfield and leadoff, couldn't they? He's currently property of the Mets, but they've been trying to move him for years because of "attitude".

First, no, he's a righty. Second, we have had enough attitude problems that you should know better than putting "" around attitude. Third, he's playing pretty regularly for the mets these days, so I don't know that they are looking to deal him anymore.

And we don't have "non-existent prospects" despite what baseball america says. There are several guys down on the farm who are fast and powerful (though not lefty) at shortstop and at catcher (Diaz and Santos).

I'd far rather their emerging power bats (Santos won double a home run contest and has 17 of them so far this year) and Diaz has always been known for power and now is hitting for average and OBP.

Ignoring the fact that you were talking about buying out the DH for playing time, not the short stop or catcher: Santos? See, this is why you are a jays homer. Ignore Baseball America, here's what our own Richard Griffin had to say about him a week ago:

Q: What is the prospectus on Sergio Santos? Does he have the potential to be the shortstop the Jays are looking?

Bob Sherbo, Bradford, Ont.

A: Santos has given indications he will never be the shortstop the Jays are looking for. In two spring trainings at Dunedin as a member of the Jays organization, whenever Sergio has played in major-league games or whenever I have visited minor-league camp at the Bobby Mattick centre, the former Diamondbacks prospect has demonstrated more holes in his swing than a block of Swiss cheese.

The ideal shortstop the Jays are looking for in the future can field like John McDonald and hit like Miguel Tejada. Santos is not close to being either. The reason Royce Clayton was released was because he was not an upgrade over Johnny Mac in fielding, hitting or running. So why bother keeping him around? The 29 other clubs already knew that and the Jays apparently didn't. The 24-year-old Santos, at 6-foot-2, 240 lbs. looks more like a corner infielder than a future major-league shortstop. The Jays will have to trade for their shortstop or look to free agency.

Those feelings are pretty much universal in everything I read. But you must know better then people who actually see him play.

As for Diaz, while I wouldn't mind seeing him up, he should take time from Zaun. While he may very well be capable of putting up good numbers for a catcher, he's not going to put up good numbers for a DH.

If he can't play in the field, can't hit fastballs on the inside and at best walks a few times a week is that worth 10 million? Right. What's so reactionary about that? It would be a very risky move, but one that might make them better in the end.

I know it won't happen though, because they've already sunk the money.

It should though, because this team needs to know what it has, more than watching an old Frank Thomas slowly decline.

I love this straw man argument. There's nothing reactionary in saying he isn't worth $10 million (though he's not as overpaid as you make him out to be while you ae busy dismissing the value of a guy walking every other game). What's reactionary is to say you are better off buying him out when you have **** all to replace him with, and will still be paying him most of his money.

[youreachiteach]

-= original quote snipped =-



I love this straw man argument. There's nothing reactionary in saying he isn't worth $10 million (though he's not as overpaid as you make him out to be while you ae busy dismissing the value of a guy walking every other game). What's reactionary is to say you are better off buying him out when you have **** all to replace him with, and will still be paying him most of his money.

Richard Griffin,the most negative nancy that ever was a former Expo's gofer can basically suck my left one. He even admitted he "might" be an ass in print. No kidding, Rich. Maybe the only correct thing he's ever written.

All I've heard this year is that he's improved his swinging mechanics, is hitting more home runs, is hitting for higher average (.250ish from .191) and is becoming more patient. I frequent battersbox.ca for daily coverage of all minor league games, including scouting reports of his progress in double and triple A. But no, I've never seen him in person. But I've read a lot by others who have (without the bias of griffin).

The only problem he has is with his D (because he is gangly, like Rios).

His defence still needs work, but we have the great Butterfield, master of all defensive coaches, right? Griffin is going off of what he saw in spring training, and the various reports that were filed "LAST YEAR" and when he was traded. No, his swing doesn't have "big holes in it" but he does hit for power, yes.

Bottom line: Richard Griffin would call a great prospect "questionable" if he could discredit Ricciardi in the process. He has the same respect as Keith Law in the industry for having absolutely no integrity in reporting. He simply wants to be right. I think these guys deserve a chance. They have had very good years.

As far as Frank goes, I understand the importance of OBP. But all things being equal, what would you rather have? Is Frank really being paid to be an OBP type hitter? He is paid to HIT. I'd rather have Rios or Wells or even Glaus take a walk before Frank does. The guy is a future hall of famer with a discerning eye at the plate--the problem is, this year he is using that skill not with the idea of hitting, but rather just talking a walk rather than getting embarassed by swinging too much. I've also noticed lately he's started to swing on 3-0 counts--and he is still popping out most of the time to center or right when he guesses. The guy is a help, yes, but not for 10 million dollars, thanks. And yes, that can be filled by other members of the roster by comittee.

Your "what can we get for the money" is not really relevant. It's the type of player we need to target. Getting frankie cat back would be much better, despite his numbers this year. Did you see him slice up the lines for Texas this year at the dome? It's nice to have Lebron James and Kobe and Carmelo on the floor together, but someone needs to be able to shoot from the perimeter at a high clip. That team is not built correctly--like this one.

This team has too many power hitters than can do little else. Frankie Cat was a useful OBP player--because he had the speed and slap ability to make it more relevant. That's what Ricciardi should've done in the first place.

I guarantee there are way more RBI's in everyone's pocket if he doesn't get let go this year. Stairs is sitting with almost as many homers as frank in like what, half the atbats? He is already signed,too? I repeat, what do we need frank for?

I'd much rather see young talent, a healthy Glaus and Wells (who is much better than frank at this point of their careers, if healthy) and a scrappy Stairs than an ineffective Thomas.

[Geddy]

Frank has been producing for us this year, especially when you consider that our whole offense isn't where it should be.

Yes his numbers aren't where they should be, but at this stage of his career I don't think management expected anything more than 30HRs and 100 RBI. Last year he was close to 40 HRs 120RBI - so signing a guy that came off a season like that for 10 mil really isn't bad at all.

Like Modern said, you aren't going to get someone to replace his numbers right away, especially when you want to go cheaper. To be honest I'd rather have Frank in the lineup these days then Stairs. If you want to talk about guys who will decline then I say Matt is probably not going to repeat his earlier sucess from this season.

I was just looking at numbers for other DHs around the AL and Frank is pretty much in the top 4 or 5 for certain offensive categories. I'd like to see him stick around next season.

[fliszt25]

Frank has been producing for us this year, especially when you consider that our whole offense isn't where it should be.

Yes his numbers aren't where they should be, but at this stage of his career I don't think management expected anything more than 30HRs and 100 RBI. Last year he was close to 40 HRs 120RBI - so signing a guy that came off a season like that for 10 mil really isn't bad at all.

Like Modern said, you aren't going to get someone to replace his numbers right away, especially when you want to go cheaper. To be honest I'd rather have Frank in the lineup these days then Stairs. If you want to talk about guys who will decline then I say Matt is probably not going to repeat his earlier sucess from this season.

I was just looking at numbers for other DHs around the AL and Frank is pretty much in the top 4 or 5 for certain offensive categories. I'd like to see him stick around next season.

Your argument on Thomas is pretty valid. He has been producing pretty well considering his age and relative to the other DHs in the league. I don't think that Ricciardi expected an exact replication of his numbers although he was probably dreaming of that as a best case scenario.

However, one of the consistant arguments that I have concerning Frank is that he plays a redundant role on this team considering that we already have a low-average power hitter on the team (Glaus). Though actually, when I compare the 2, I'd probably rather dispose of Glaus than Thomas because of Glaus' fragility and streakiness.

However, an additional problem with Thomas is for 2 seasons in a row, he's started off horribly. Now, say what you will about Frank improving in each of those years, but when you start off horribly from such an important productive spot as DH, you can encourage bad habits from your offense all around because it puts more stress on the rest of the hitters to contribute (couple that with Vernon's bad starts and you have a problem). Thus, the concern is that next year, another slow start by Thomas could pose the same problems as this year. Give me a .300 hitter like Catalanatto in that DH spot over Thomas any day of the year and I'd feel much more reassured. Our 2 spot in the lineup has been non-existent this year ever since Catalanatto departed which is Riccardi's doing.

[tsherkin]

What I really hate about this team is that it's better than it seems right now.

A lot of our offensive slumping is the result of swinging for the fences and ignoring other opportunities. We've been REALLY crappy about hitting with RISP but we've also not put runners there often enough.

If Gibbons would blow an out bunting a guy over to second or third once in a while, we'd be giving ourselves extra opportunities to score on even something like a slap single into the outfield; we're simply being stupid offensively, not creating or taking advantage of the kinds of opportunities good teams make use of to score runs when their power fizzles. It happens to everyone.

Look at the Angels; Guerrero's power has been fluctuating but because they run a lot and have contact hitting, they can still score and have been successful.

This team would be seriously competitive for the wild card (and maybe a dark horse for the division) if we had a competent manager.

That's what bugs me; we can't effectively evaluate the roster because our manager doesn't use the assets we have.

Vernon should be aiming for a 30/120 season, not 40 HRs; he should be looking to shoot the gap and get singles and doubles, then run a bit. Rios, too (though with him, it's just a matter of running a bit more; his hitting is fine). We need to move Glaus if we can; even if it takes a hack out of our power, we could use another really good contact hitter, especially since our power hasn't been doing it for us anyway.