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2018-19 Offseason Thread

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Re: 2018-19 Offseason Thread 

Post#61 » by Skin Blues » Fri Nov 9, 2018 5:50 pm

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!#$!@#$ I wanted Mallex Smith......That is a brutal trade for the Rays.

We already have 2 CF's that are better than him, why would we want Mallex? He's a slap hitter that strikes out too much for his profile. He's basically Guillermo Heredia (the other guy Tampa traded him for) but coming off a season with 100 extra points of BABIP, which won't sustain. Mallex is better than Heredia, sure, but it's not as big a gap as last season makes it seem. Tampa isn't stupid. They know his stolen bases will cost them a lot in arbitration, even though they bring almost no value in real life since he's barely above the break-even point. So they're going with Heredia instead, who had a higher BB-rate and lower K-rate last season, in addition to more power and similar defensive value.



I didn't want him to play CF, I wanted him to play LF and lead off. He stole 40 bases, hit 27 doubles,10 triples and posted an OBP of .367.You may think his BABIP isn't sustainable, but with his speed and game he is going to hit for a high average. He also had about a 10% BB rate and to top it all off with a nice cherry..... he hits left handed.

He doesn't just steal bases. He stole the 2nd most in the AL. He doesn't just get on base. He got on base more than any player on our roster (...by a significant amount) and was 22nd in all of baseball (among qualifiers). You say his offense sucks......I say he was EXACTLY what this offense needs to go with all our power bats, and played a position we are still trying to fill long term.

Tampa may care in 2020 that he hits arb, but the Jays wouldn't. What's he gonna make year 1 of arb...3M? He is under control until 2023, and could have given us the lead off hitter we have been missing since Revere left after 2015.


Then you trade Pillar (if he didn't go in that deal), slide Grichuk over to CF and find a real power bat with an arm to play RF. (..maybe even eventually Vladdy if he doesn't stick at 3B since he's only 6ft tall.)

In LF you don't get as much value from his speed as you would in CF. The positional adjustment hurts a big part of his value. And as I mentioned, his SBs are elite, but SB's don't really matter at all in a vacuum. Base running matters, and he is indeed good at base running too since speed is a huge component of that. But as an example, Aaron Hicks and his 11 SBs, and Eddie Rosario and his 8 SBs, provided more value on the bases than Mallex and his 40 SBs. Since he is barely above the break-even point in stolen bases, he'd be nearly as valuable in terms of overall base running if he had 2 SB and 0 CS as opposed to 40 SB and 12 CS, assuming everything else stayed the same (taking extra bases, scoring from 1st/2nd at a high rate, etc).

His on-base skills are good, yes. I didn't say he was garbage. He walks more than most slap hitters. Just that his value heavily relies on his BABIP which was unsustainably high last year, even for a guy with his speed. He was 11 points of xwOBA behind Heredia last year, although xwOBA has it's flaws since MLB keeps tinkering with the ball (which has hurt the value of fly balls). And his superior speed will boost the BABIP and xwOBA a bit. But it's not at all clear that he's a better hitter than Heredia (Steamer projects them within 4 points of wRC+). And since the salary for 3 of his remaining 4 years of team control will be inflated due to his SB totals, his present value is diminished. This is the Rays being the Rays. Finding cheap, usable players and not waiting until the last minute to cash in on assets with limited room for surplus value. Heredia won't make them a contender, but the extra few millions of dollars they can re-allocate might.
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Re: 2018-19 Offseason Thread 

Post#62 » by Wo1verine » Fri Nov 9, 2018 6:05 pm

Should be spending money like big boys never understood the non sense that we can't spend money while playing the kids at the same time.

I agree with not spending on meh players but high end player like Harper should be seriously considered as he's only 26 years old.
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Re: 2018-19 Offseason Thread 

Post#63 » by Schad » Fri Nov 9, 2018 6:18 pm

Wo1verine wrote:Should be spending money like big boys never understood the non sense that we can't spend money while playing the kids at the same time.

I agree with not spending on meh players but high end player like Harper should be seriously considered as he's only 26 years old.


No, Harper really shouldn't be considered. Beyond the bit where we simply aren't going to spend $200m a year, and the bit where spending $200m is absolutely no guarantee of success in the current era, the deal Harper receives is going to be a nightmare. He has one season where he played like an MVP; the remainder of his career he has merely been rather good. Over the past three years, he has been outproduced (in similar PAs) by Didi Gregorius, Jean Segura, Brian Dozier, and Andrelton Simmons...very good players all, but none of them are likely to be lumped in with Trout and Betts any time soon.

Rather good should not get you 14 years at an AAV of $30m a year, which is his current projection. Harper is a not a generational player, and he shouldn't be getting the contract of a generational player. We've been doing this every year since I can remember: lusting after the chance to seriously overpay name brands, most of whom haven't even remotely lived up to their deals.
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Re: 2018-19 Offseason Thread 

Post#64 » by polo007 » Fri Nov 9, 2018 11:23 pm

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TORONTO BLUE JAYS

Executives: Mark Shapiro and Ross Atkins

Needs:

— Starting pitching
— Bullpen
— More pitching

Possible FA Targets: Patrick Corbin, Dallas Keuchel, Nathan Eovaldi, J.A. Happ, Charlie Morton, Hyun-Jin Ryu, Yusei Kikuchi, Gio González, Lance Lynn, Ervin Santana, Aníbal Sánchez, Wade Miley, Adam Ottavino, Jeurys Familia, Kelvin Herrera, Cody Allen, David Robertson, Joakim Soria, Andrew Miller, Bud Norris, Joe Kelly, Greg Holland, AJ Ramos, Brad Brach, Justin Wilson, Jesse Chavez, Shawn Kelley

Possible Trade Targets: Corey Kluber, Carlos Carrasco, Luis Castillo, Kyle Gibson, José Ureña, Dylan Bundy, Mike Leake, Matt Boyd
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Re: 2018-19 Offseason Thread 

Post#65 » by Schad » Fri Nov 9, 2018 11:30 pm

One name not listed among the trade targets that wouldn't surprise me: Julio Teheran. Atlanta wants to move some money and open up rotation spots for their young starters, and indications are that he won't be terribly expensive. Teheran has an option for 2020 with a cheap buyout, making him a reasonable flip opportunity, and we have a combination of infield depth and relief arms that they might find appealing.
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Re: 2018-19 Offseason Thread 

Post#66 » by polo007 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:40 am

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Re: 2018-19 Offseason Thread 

Post#67 » by Black Watch » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:23 am

Schad wrote:
Wo1verine wrote:Should be spending money like big boys never understood the non sense that we can't spend money while playing the kids at the same time.

I agree with not spending on meh players but high end player like Harper should be seriously considered as he's only 26 years old.


No, Harper really shouldn't be considered. Beyond the bit where we simply aren't going to spend $200m a year, and the bit where spending $200m is absolutely no guarantee of success in the current era, the deal Harper receives is going to be a nightmare. He has one season where he played like an MVP; the remainder of his career he has merely been rather good. Over the past three years, he has been outproduced (in similar PAs) by Didi Gregorius, Jean Segura, Brian Dozier, and Andrelton Simmons...very good players all, but none of them are likely to be lumped in with Trout and Betts any time soon.

Rather good should not get you 14 years at an AAV of $30m a year, which is his current projection. Harper is a not a generational player, and he shouldn't be getting the contract of a generational player. We've been doing this every year since I can remember: lusting after the chance to seriously overpay name brands, most of whom haven't even remotely lived up to their deals.

Since his 10-win MVP season in 2015...

    Year-----OBP----SLG---OPS+--WAR

    2016----.373---.441---114----1.5 (in 147 games)
    2017----.413---.595---156----4.7 (111 games)
    2018----.393---.496---133----1.3 (159 games)

Certainly he's capable of being better than a 1-win player again, but over the past three seasons you have ever-diminishing base-running numbers, ever-diminishing defensive numbers, and now when front offices are placing more value on base-running and defense, very few clubs would be foolish enough to pay more than $30m a year for over a decade (and the media will spin it to say that only a few clubs can even afford him, when in fact it's that only a few would be so desperate).
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Re: 2018-19 Offseason Thread 

Post#68 » by Skin Blues » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:22 pm

Black Watch wrote:
Schad wrote:
Wo1verine wrote:Should be spending money like big boys never understood the non sense that we can't spend money while playing the kids at the same time.

I agree with not spending on meh players but high end player like Harper should be seriously considered as he's only 26 years old.


No, Harper really shouldn't be considered. Beyond the bit where we simply aren't going to spend $200m a year, and the bit where spending $200m is absolutely no guarantee of success in the current era, the deal Harper receives is going to be a nightmare. He has one season where he played like an MVP; the remainder of his career he has merely been rather good. Over the past three years, he has been outproduced (in similar PAs) by Didi Gregorius, Jean Segura, Brian Dozier, and Andrelton Simmons...very good players all, but none of them are likely to be lumped in with Trout and Betts any time soon.

Rather good should not get you 14 years at an AAV of $30m a year, which is his current projection. Harper is a not a generational player, and he shouldn't be getting the contract of a generational player. We've been doing this every year since I can remember: lusting after the chance to seriously overpay name brands, most of whom haven't even remotely lived up to their deals.

Since his 10-win MVP season in 2015...

    Year-----OBP----SLG---OPS+--WAR

    2016----.373---.441---114----1.5 (in 147 games)
    2017----.413---.595---156----4.7 (111 games)
    2018----.393---.496---133----1.3 (159 games)

Certainly he's capable of being better than a 1-win player again, but over the past three seasons you have ever-diminishing base-running numbers, ever-diminishing defensive numbers, and now when front offices are placing more value on base-running and defense, very few clubs would be foolish enough to pay more than $30m a year for over a decade (and the media will spin it to say that only a few clubs can even afford him, when in fact it's that only a few would be so desperate).

wow, I didn't realize his defense was that bad last year. That kinda came out of nowhere, he was consistently very good for the rest of his career and all of a sudden he's at -26 DRS?!? What a landmine that contract could turn out to be.
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Re: 2018-19 Offseason Thread 

Post#69 » by manjusaka » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:06 pm

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all captured from baseball-reference.com


------

those numbers are horrendously bad, like the worst defense in the league bad.

Martin, Maile @C
Grichuk @RF
and maybe Drury @3B

other than those players in the particular position, we don't have any one who are currently rated as AVG defense at their position.
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Re: 2018-19 Offseason Thread 

Post#70 » by wamco » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:27 pm

Might as well cover whatever it takes to cover Tulo and Martin and morales contract to get a good prospect . Then sign 2sp and 3 rp and an OF. to flip at the deadline. Then trade pillar and Smoak at deadline.

Net 11 prospects without blocking big prospects
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Re: 2018-19 Offseason Thread 

Post#71 » by polo007 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:26 pm

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Re: 2018-19 Offseason Thread 

Post#72 » by polo007 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:12 am

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Not surprisingly, sources say the Indians are getting “hit hard” with trade inquiries for Kluber and their two other available starting pitchers — right-handers Trevor Bauer and Carlos Carrasco, both of whom are under control for two more seasons, as opposed to Kluber’s three.

The narrower window of control means the price for either Bauer or Carrasco might be lower than it is for Kluber. But in Bauer’s case, it might not be much lower; he was on a Cy Young track before he suffered a stress fracture in his right fibula on Aug. 11, and is only 27, while Kluber is 32.

Rival clubs say the Indians rarely come off their desired price in trade discussions, so it’s possible they will not trade any of their starters this offseason. They always can try again at the non-waiver deadline, knowing righty Danny Salazar might be ready by then after missing all of last season due to shoulder issues.

Whatever they do, the Indians again will be prohibitive favorites to win the AL Central. They are open to trading a starter only because of their payroll limitations and roster needs, most notably in the outfield. Such a deal would be more painful if it actually jeopardized their chances of winning the division.
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Re: 2018-19 Offseason Thread 

Post#73 » by bartron_44 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:09 pm

Skin Blues wrote:
bartron_44 wrote:
Skin Blues wrote:We already have 2 CF's that are better than him, why would we want Mallex? He's a slap hitter that strikes out too much for his profile. He's basically Guillermo Heredia (the other guy Tampa traded him for) but coming off a season with 100 extra points of BABIP, which won't sustain. Mallex is better than Heredia, sure, but it's not as big a gap as last season makes it seem. Tampa isn't stupid. They know his stolen bases will cost them a lot in arbitration, even though they bring almost no value in real life since he's barely above the break-even point. So they're going with Heredia instead, who had a higher BB-rate and lower K-rate last season, in addition to more power and similar defensive value.



I didn't want him to play CF, I wanted him to play LF and lead off. He stole 40 bases, hit 27 doubles,10 triples and posted an OBP of .367.You may think his BABIP isn't sustainable, but with his speed and game he is going to hit for a high average. He also had about a 10% BB rate and to top it all off with a nice cherry..... he hits left handed.

He doesn't just steal bases. He stole the 2nd most in the AL. He doesn't just get on base. He got on base more than any player on our roster (...by a significant amount) and was 22nd in all of baseball (among qualifiers). You say his offense sucks......I say he was EXACTLY what this offense needs to go with all our power bats, and played a position we are still trying to fill long term.

Tampa may care in 2020 that he hits arb, but the Jays wouldn't. What's he gonna make year 1 of arb...3M? He is under control until 2023, and could have given us the lead off hitter we have been missing since Revere left after 2015.


Then you trade Pillar (if he didn't go in that deal), slide Grichuk over to CF and find a real power bat with an arm to play RF. (..maybe even eventually Vladdy if he doesn't stick at 3B since he's only 6ft tall.)

In LF you don't get as much value from his speed as you would in CF. The positional adjustment hurts a big part of his value. And as I mentioned, his SBs are elite, but SB's don't really matter at all in a vacuum. Base running matters, and he is indeed good at base running too since speed is a huge component of that. But as an example, Aaron Hicks and his 11 SBs, and Eddie Rosario and his 8 SBs, provided more value on the bases than Mallex and his 40 SBs. Since he is barely above the break-even point in stolen bases, he'd be nearly as valuable in terms of overall base running if he had 2 SB and 0 CS as opposed to 40 SB and 12 CS, assuming everything else stayed the same (taking extra bases, scoring from 1st/2nd at a high rate, etc).

His on-base skills are good, yes. I didn't say he was garbage. He walks more than most slap hitters. Just that his value heavily relies on his BABIP which was unsustainably high last year, even for a guy with his speed. He was 11 points of xwOBA behind Heredia last year, although xwOBA has it's flaws since MLB keeps tinkering with the ball (which has hurt the value of fly balls). And his superior speed will boost the BABIP and xwOBA a bit. But it's not at all clear that he's a better hitter than Heredia (Steamer projects them within 4 points of wRC+). And since the salary for 3 of his remaining 4 years of team control will be inflated due to his SB totals, his present value is diminished. This is the Rays being the Rays. Finding cheap, usable players and not waiting until the last minute to cash in on assets with limited room for surplus value. Heredia won't make them a contender, but the extra few millions of dollars they can re-allocate might.




I am not worried about WAR, I wanted Mallex because he is a young lead off guy who can be an above average defensive LF. However, he spent more time in the corners this year than in CF and still posted a 3.5 WAR. This team desperately needs more speed and high OBP guys to hit at the top of the lineup again. Guys that can score from 1st on a double and get the guys behind them more first pitch fastballs for strikes or 1-0 counts because they are worried he is going to steal.

SB's may not mean much to you or the analytics, but a guy that can steal 40+ bases is going to put himself in scoring position 30+ more times for the guys behind him. Get 2 of those guys hitting either 9-1 or 1-2 and that could be 60+ more AB's with RISP for your best hitters. I'll take high OBP over SB's, but ideally I want both at the top of the order.
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Re: 2018-19 Offseason Thread 

Post#74 » by polo007 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:45 pm

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Re: 2018-19 Offseason Thread 

Post#75 » by polo007 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:31 am

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Re: 2018-19 Offseason Thread 

Post#76 » by Al_Oliver » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:36 pm

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I figured it would be his brain that keeps him away, not his heart...
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Re: 2018-19 Offseason Thread 

Post#77 » by Wo1verine » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:27 pm

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/shapiro-blue-jays-payroll-will-rise-foundation-arrives/

Still don't understand why the can't have a top ten payroll and play the young guys at the same time?
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Re: 2018-19 Offseason Thread 

Post#78 » by Schad » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:57 pm

Wo1verine wrote:https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/shapiro-blue-jays-payroll-will-rise-foundation-arrives/

Still don't understand why the can't have a top ten payroll and play the young guys at the same time?


Why allot all of our money now when we have no idea when we'll be competitive again, nor what we'll need when we are? Most free agent contracts are better in the front end, as well, meaning that if we start throwing money around most of their production will come in uncompetitive seasons (even with a top 10 payroll, we're going to be uncompetitive next year).

Far better to keep our powder dry for the time being.
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Re: 2018-19 Offseason Thread 

Post#79 » by polo007 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:38 am

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Re: 2018-19 Offseason Thread 

Post#80 » by bluerap23 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:38 am

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I guess Russ may still have some value.
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