The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread

[Black Watch]

[But they trade their best players for, y'know, desirable assets. We had desirable assets then, as we did in 2013. By the end of 2015, we had almost no trade assets...seriously, check our prospect list from 2015:

http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2015/?list=tor

Jon Harris was our top prospect, rated at 80th league-wide. Jon Harris! What a bad list. There's no act of wizardry available to AA or anyone else that was going to turn Jon Harris into a trade for a star.

In 2016 it was even worse—Urena was considered our top prospect.

http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2016/?list=tor

[ratul]

What? We are in year three and just gave 55mn to a below average defender who can't get on base and our defense was ranked last year. What exactly are you 'hoping' for? We were the WORST defense in baseball last year and are being run by a GM who has losing seasons in 70% of the seasons he has been a GM.

Grichuk has graded out as an above-average OF every year of his career. I presume you're looking at the little "Def" stat on Fangraphs; that includes a positional adjustment, and corner OFs are penalized for playing less difficult positions than, say, a CF or SS.

It's worth noting that the defensive matrix on which that is based is fairly outdated now; given the proliferation of LAUNCH ANGLE proponents, and the increased use of infield shifts, corner OF defense is probably at least as important as 2B or 3B.

Anyhoo, Grichuk has significant flaws, but being below-average defensively isn't one of them.

Wrong again pal - check out our 55mn dollar man's defensive WAR. It was negative last year. And fairly negative before that.

Your grade that he has done well is just pure hocum.

[ratul]

What? We are in year three and just gave 55mn to a below average defender who can't get on base and our defense was ranked last year. What exactly are you 'hoping' for? We were the WORST defense in baseball last year and are being run by a GM who has losing seasons in 70% of the seasons he has been a GM.

Are you thinking that Shapiro will turn it around based on prospects in Double A? Playa please. I am stunned people are defending this a**-clown.

yes.[/quote]

L.O.L

[BigLeagueChew]

L.O.L

You put forward a convincing argument.

Good team in Cleveland, wonder who was largely responsible for it back in 05-07 and then again just before leaving them to joining the Jays.

And the Indians are still winning.

[Schad]

Wrong again pal - check out our 55mn dollar man's defensive WAR. It was negative last year. And fairly negative before that.

Your grade that he has done well is just pure hocum.

Again, that's because of the positional adjustment. A corner outfielder who provides league-average corner outfield defense will be worth -7.5 runs. By both UZR and Defensive Runs Saved, he graded out as a high-average RF, as he has pretty well throughout his career. There are only a handful of corner OFs leaguewide with a positive defensive WAR as a result.

Out of the 29 players who spent 500+ defensive innings in right field, Grichuk rated 8th in UZR and 12th in DRS. Unless you're going to argue that only 25% of right fielders are average or better right fielders, Grichuk is a better-than-average right fielder.

[wamco]

All off season I heard how exciting it was gonna be to watch this young team and I rolled my eyes. Bad baseball is bad baseball. This is unwatchable.

[BigLeagueChew]

All off season I heard how exciting it was gonna be to watch this young team and I rolled my eyes. Bad baseball is bad baseball. This is unwatchable.

We will be when top talent filters in, right now it's alot of talent that may be replacement level(average) at best.

Also, Cleveland is good.

[Schad]

Most of the kids are still in AAA. They won't be all year. Borucki will be back off the DL in a couple weeks, Vlad will be here in a month, Biggio/Alford will likely join them in early summer if they hit, as might Bichette.

We'll lose a lot of games in the interim (hell, we'll lose a lot of games overall) but it'll become significantly more watchable as the kids filter up. We also aren't going to hit .170 all season, heh.

[wamco]

Ya, I consider the 2019 real team to be the one on the field in about 3 weeks. Offense is still gonna stink when vlad gets here though . Maybe bo and Biggio get here this summer and maybe Smoak is traded. Maybe stro and Sanchez too.

[ratul]

L.O.L

You put forward a convincing argument.

Good team in Cleveland, wonder who was largely responsible for it back in 05-07 and then again just before leaving them to joining the Jays.

And the Indians are still winning.

Weak once again. Shapiro had four winning seasons out of 15 as gm in Cleveland. Despite being handed a World Series contender. Also presided over the worst drop in attendance in the majors.

So, he’s a loser who destroys attendance. Clearly doing much better in Toronto.

[ratul]

Wrong again pal - check out our 55mn dollar man's defensive WAR. It was negative last year. And fairly negative before that.

Your grade that he has done well is just pure hocum.

Again, that's because of the positional adjustment. A corner outfielder who provides league-average corner outfield defense will be worth -7.5 runs. By both UZR and Defensive Runs Saved, he graded out as a high-average RF, as he has pretty well throughout his career. There are only a handful of corner OFs leaguewide with a positive defensive WAR as a result.

Out of the 29 players who spent 500+ defensive innings in right field, Grichuk rated 8th in UZR and 12th in DRS. Unless you're going to argue that only 25% of right fielders are average or better right fielders, Grichuk is a better-than-average right fielder.

Dude pull yourself out of sabermetric purgatory. In baseball you can find any stat that supports your position. You did the same saying our defensive war was weak in 2015 therefore double A sucked. Even though we went to the ALCS and even though our defense has been miles worse ever since.

You convinced yourself further that our farm is top tier even though our farm would be trash without vladdy.

It’s the same bs train of thought. Find an obscure stat, pass it off as scripture and then act like it is gospel to validate your argument when common sense would have served you better.

As a result, you now have to defend on of the worst gms in baseball for a team that is 3-7 and has almost been no-hit twice.

It’s crazy how obtuse these arguments are.

[BigLeagueChew]

Weak once again. Shapiro had four winning seasons out of 15 as gm in Cleveland. Despite being handed a World Series contender. Also presided over the worst drop in attendance in the majors.

So, he’s a loser who destroys attendance. Clearly doing much better in Toronto.

He wasn't gm in Cleveland for 15 seasons. Please do research first before calling someone weak.

-Shapiro worked in the Cleveland Indians organization since 1991, when he was recommended by former Tribe GM Hank Peters. He had worked his way up from player development director to Assistant General Manager, and in 2001 became General Manager.

-Shapiro was named Executive of the Year by the Sporting News in 2005 and 2007, following 90+ wins seasons by the Indians, including an American League Central Division Championship in 2007. At the end of the 2010 season, he became the Cleveland Indians team president, with Chris Antonetti succeeding Shapiro as General Manager.

-wiki

Gm , not for 15 years, and did well enough to be named team president, build the team twice and then move on to his next project which is hopefully building a championship team with sustainable talent again for a 3rd time. Torture i know.

[Black Watch]

Dude pull yourself out of sabermetric purgatory. In baseball you can find any stat that supports your position...

... our farm would be trash without vladdy...

... Find an obscure stat, pass it off as scripture and then act like it is gospel to validate your argument when common sense would have served you better...

... one of the worst gms in baseball for a team that is 3-7 and has almost been no-hit twice.

It’s crazy how obtuse these arguments are.

Having a hard time figuring out if you're a satirist or an ironist...

[Schad]

Dude pull yourself out of sabermetric purgatory. In baseball you can find any stat that supports your position. You did the same saying our defensive war was weak in 2015 therefore double A sucked. Even though we went to the ALCS and even though our defense has been miles worse ever since.

Find me these posts, because I have never put a particularly high emphasis on defense (and our defense was decent enough anyway). What I criticized AA for was emptying the farm system, cautioning that people who were all about WIN NOW would suddenly find in 2017 that we had no prospects left and most of our roster was declining and we were going to need to rebuild, and would complain bitterly that the team wasn't competitive anymore. Which, y'know, happened. Making the ALCS twice was almost certainly worth it, but it was a decision that came with major consequences, foremost among them that we were almost certainly going to be bad within 2-3 years, and no GM -- not Shapiro, not Anthopolous, not Branch Rickey with Nostradamus as his scouting director -- was going to change that.

You're the only person I've ever encountered who seems to believe that defense (which is unquestionably valuable, but also unquestionably the least important of the three pillars of baseball) is the alpha and omega.

You convinced yourself further that our farm is top tier even though our farm would be trash without vladdy.

Because this is dumb and wrong and displays a complete lack of understanding of our farm system. We'd be a top 10 system without Vlad. There's quite a bit of quality there.

It’s the same bs train of thought. Find an obscure stat, pass it off as scripture and then act like it is gospel to validate your argument when common sense would have served you better.

WAR is obscure in the same way that the English language is obscure.

[ratul]

Dude pull yourself out of sabermetric purgatory. In baseball you can find any stat that supports your position. You did the same saying our defensive war was weak in 2015 therefore double A sucked. Even though we went to the ALCS and even though our defense has been miles worse ever since.

Find me these posts, because I have never put a particularly high emphasis on defense (and our defense was decent enough anyway). What I criticized AA for was emptying the farm system, cautioning that people who were all about WIN NOW would suddenly find in 2017 that we had no prospects left and most of our roster was declining and we were going to need to rebuild, and would complain bitterly that the team wasn't competitive anymore. Which, y'know, happened. Making the ALCS twice was almost certainly worth it, but it was a decision that came with major consequences, foremost among them that we were almost certainly going to be bad within 2-3 years, and no GM -- not Shapiro, not Anthopolous, not Branch Rickey with Nostradamus as his scouting director -- was going to change that.

You're the only person I've ever encountered who seems to believe that defense (which is unquestionably valuable, but also unquestionably the least important of the three pillars of baseball) is the alpha and omega.

You convinced yourself further that our farm is top tier even though our farm would be trash without vladdy.

Because this is dumb and wrong and displays a complete lack of understanding of our farm system. We'd be a top 10 system without Vlad. There's quite a bit of quality there.

It’s the same bs train of thought. Find an obscure stat, pass it off as scripture and then act like it is gospel to validate your argument when common sense would have served you better.

WAR is obscure in the same way that the English language is obscure.

You can find them yourself big guy - you were the one to make them. And you confirmed you don't care about defense. Therein lies the rub. Defense wins championships and given we were LAST in 2018 alongside Baltimore who lost over 100 games, maybe you should care about it. Particularly when you say that Grichuk is a good defender despite having a negative defensive WAR and you talk trash about Edwin for being a poor defender even though his WAR is strongly positive and he has a huge OBP.

Which one is it? If you don't care, well then maybe you should. Defense is effing important - just ask Houston that ranks consistently in the top-tier of defense.

Therein lies the rub - you and Shatkins don't care about defense or even how to properly evaluate players. Hence why he is trash and we are 3-7 through our first 10 and no one to write home about in our starting nine. I remain amazed you continue to defend this shi*show

[ratul]

Dude pull yourself out of sabermetric purgatory. In baseball you can find any stat that supports your position...

... our farm would be trash without vladdy...

... Find an obscure stat, pass it off as scripture and then act like it is gospel to validate your argument when common sense would have served you better...

... one of the worst gms in baseball for a team that is 3-7 and has almost been no-hit twice.

It’s crazy how obtuse these arguments are.

Having a hard time figuring out if you're a satirist or an ironist...

Did I stutter? We have a 3-8 team that has been almost no-hit twice and was LAST in defense last year. We had 9,000 people at our last home game. Maybe you see irony in that or satirical thought - I just see a car-crash.

[ratul]

Weak once again. Shapiro had four winning seasons out of 15 as gm in Cleveland. Despite being handed a World Series contender. Also presided over the worst drop in attendance in the majors.

So, he’s a loser who destroys attendance. Clearly doing much better in Toronto.

He wasn't gm in Cleveland for 15 seasons. Please do research first before calling someone weak.

-Shapiro worked in the Cleveland Indians organization since 1991, when he was recommended by former Tribe GM Hank Peters. He had worked his way up from player development director to Assistant General Manager, and in 2001 became General Manager.

-Shapiro was named Executive of the Year by the Sporting News in 2005 and 2007, following 90+ wins seasons by the Indians, including an American League Central Division Championship in 2007. At the end of the 2010 season, he became the Cleveland Indians team president, with Chris Antonetti succeeding Shapiro as General Manager.

-wiki

Gm , not for 15 years, and did well enough to be named team president, build the team twice and then move on to his next project which is hopefully building a championship team with sustainable talent again for a 3rd time. Torture i know.

Look pal, I can't help if your takes are weak. Shapiro was in charge of baseball operations for 15 years in Cleveland. He had a losing season in 11 of those and destroyed the cleveland fan base whilst in charge.

Double A was executive of the year too - we pushed him out of his role. Either you care about that award or you don't. Personally, I don't because I know that Shapiro has had the longest track record of carnage of any GM.

[Al_Oliver]

All off season I heard how exciting it was gonna be to watch this young team and I rolled my eyes. Bad baseball is bad baseball. This is unwatchable.

This can be true but also is best for the team. A top 5 pick with the corresponding bonus pool will be worth it.
My expectations were so low that I can deal with a season like this one...

[Schad]

You can find them yourself big guy - you were the one to make them. And you confirmed you don't care about defense. Therein lies the rub. Defense wins championships and given we were LAST in 2018 alongside Baltimore who lost over 100 games, maybe you should care about it. Particularly when you say that Grichuk is a good defender despite having a negative defensive WAR and you talk trash about Edwin for being a poor defender even though his WAR is strongly positive and he has a huge OBP.

"Defense wins championships" is an axiom in other sports. No one runs around saying that defense wins championships in baseball. Pitching is extremely important. Hitting is extremely important. Defense is...useful. You'd rather have a good defense than a bad one, but given a choice between fielding players who are good hitter or good defenders, you're going to want the good hitters.

Which one is it? If you don't care, well then maybe you should. Defense is effing important - just ask Houston that ranks consistently in the top-tier of defense.

From 2016 through 2018, Houston has ranked 1st (by a mile) in runs scored above average, 3rd in pitching WAR, and 23rd in defensive WAR. All three members of their vaunted infield trio -- Altuve, Correa and Bregman -- have consistently graded out as below-average defenders at their position. But that is fine, because they hit the ball really, really hard.

This must be performance art.

[ratul]

You can find them yourself big guy - you were the one to make them. And you confirmed you don't care about defense. Therein lies the rub. Defense wins championships and given we were LAST in 2018 alongside Baltimore who lost over 100 games, maybe you should care about it. Particularly when you say that Grichuk is a good defender despite having a negative defensive WAR and you talk trash about Edwin for being a poor defender even though his WAR is strongly positive and he has a huge OBP.

"Defense wins championships" is an axiom in other sports. No one runs around saying that defense wins championships in baseball. Pitching is extremely important. Hitting is extremely important. Defense is...useful. You'd rather have a good defense than a bad one, but given a choice between fielding players who are good hitter or good defenders, you're going to want the good hitters.

Which one is it? If you don't care, well then maybe you should. Defense is effing important - just ask Houston that ranks consistently in the top-tier of defense.

From 2016 through 2018, Houston has ranked 1st (by a mile) in runs scored above average, 3rd in pitching WAR, and 23rd in defensive WAR. All three members of their vaunted infield trio -- Altuve, Correa and Bregman -- have consistently graded out as below-average defenders at their position. But that is fine, because they hit the ball really, really hard.

This must be performance art.

Oy vey, in 2015, the Royals were first in defense and they won the title. In 2016, the cubs were second and won the title. In 2018 the red sox were 7th and won the title. Your example of Houston is more an aberation than the norm. And they have GENERATIONAL players. Defense wins championships - this includes baseball. Go back further than 2015 - you'll find more often than not, world series winners have a very good defense unless they are a generational hitting team. It's significantly more consistent and durable than the 2017 Houston team - which, btw, did not repeat despite being heavy favourites.

And whilst you are looking further back, remember the Blue Jays were last in defense last year. Tied with the Orioles. Enjoy this car crash bro.

But, even if we assume I am completely wrong and you are right and that offense wins championships - then why not resign Edwin and why give 55mn to Grichuk instead? And why have we been almost no-hit twice in 10 games? I am certain shapiro doesn't value defense - but there isn't much evidence he values offense either. Perhaps because he is TRASH.