Varsho/Moreno Discussion Thread

[Raps in 4]

wow moreno connected on a 93mph middle-middle BP meatball. did you see the location on that thing? an epic groove job. you literally couldn't put it up on a tee in a worse spot. absolute failure of a pitch from montgomery but kudos to moreno doing with that pitch what a big leaguer should.

Varsho would have whiffed at that.

[s e n s i]

wow moreno connected on a 93mph middle-middle BP meatball. did you see the location on that thing? an epic groove job. you literally couldn't put it up on a tee in a worse spot. absolute failure of a pitch from montgomery but kudos to moreno doing with that pitch what a big leaguer should.

Varsho would have whiffed at that.

i mean, he seemed to pump pitches like that out of the park far more often than moreno did this year. that being said, i didn't follow moreno too closely and haven't compared how many HR's each player had total and per AB, so i could be wrong.

[Boogie!]

wow moreno connected on a 93mph middle-middle BP meatball. did you see the location on that thing? an epic groove job. you literally couldn't put it up on a tee in a worse spot. absolute failure of a pitch from montgomery but kudos to moreno doing with that pitch what a big leaguer should.

Something that varsho has failed to do many times.

[Seasontickets]

And here's an additional longer ramification...

Even if Varsho hits 30 bombs on .300 hitting next year, his trade value is still likely to be worse than Moreno's because it will be assumed by many teams that the 30 hr year will be the anomaly instead of the norm. In some ways, it will take at least two years before he builds "trade" value. I am a Varsho fan however, just wish we got him for Barger and Zulueta, for example. Lol

Meanwhile, Moreno, based on this post season will have solid and inflated value for the next 2 years just because of this performance - even if he underperforms as a sophomore. Now, if he improves then his value starts to head to the upper echelon of the position.

In what world is that a problem for the blue jays?

In the world where this is the normal Varsho season. The Jays are in the business of ensuring all their assets have the most value should a really big option become probable.

If Mike trout or Yordan Alvarez or Acuna requests a trade next year…Varsho wouldn’t be considered a significant piece per se and wouldn’t move the value of a package. At this point the d backs might be able to build a trade around Moreno. War is a measurement yes but there is also the perceived value of a player around the league. The jays whiffed as terribly on that as varsho does currently on high fast balls. (Which I’m rooting on him to fix cause why would I root for any jay to suck)

[Mehar]

Cheering for the Rangers =/= cheering for the Jays. Or, more precisely, the Jays front office. Not sure what's going on with this.

Feel free to cheer for Pudge.

I’m no fan of the Jays front office at the moment but that doesn’t change the fact that the trade remains a good one. Kirk is a better player than Moreno and Varsho is probably gonna put up a 4-5 WAR season next year in CF for this team.

hey now. check the original thread. I was the very first, after dissing the trade, to say the only saving grace is that we probably have our next centre fielder (he was still being labelled a corner) for the next however many years - a premium position.. I found that the only saving grace.

but all in all, Moreno will also score well in WAR, and will never be replaced around here. he was the 1 most untouchable of our 3 catching assets, and he became suddenly very touchable - could have got far more in a trade. and if nothing else, he's a winner, and Atkins seems to be allergic to that.

didn't even lock up Jansen first. now he can hold us hostage too.

Hopefully the Jays can lock up Jansen in the off-season. However, it is more likely he will test the Free Agent market next year. It would be a disaster to lose Jansen, and one of the reasons trading Moreno was short-sighted since Moreno has 6 years of control after this season. I had no problem trading Moreno, who had hit well in every level of baseball he played. He had shown excellent defense at all levels also. One scout compared Moreno to a young Ivan Rodriguez, who had the potential to be an all-star every year like him. However, to simply trade the best catching prospect in MLB like Moreno for a defensive specialist who struck out a lot, who had been a below average hitter in every MLB season like Varsho (including hitting an atrocious .188 in 2020)- was a trade you hang up on.

Defensive specialists like Kevin Kiermaier can be had in Free Agency. Heck Bradley Zimmer was a solid Defensive player. Before the Varsho trade was made, I read online that the Jays were in talks on a rumoured deal with the Pirates trading Gurriel and Moreno for Bryan Reynolds. I would have supported that. However, trade fell through since the Pirates owner liked Reynolds, did not want to deal him, and felt he could extend him (which he ultimately did for 8 years and around 13 million a year). An all-star like Reynolds with a solid bat in LF is the guy who you trade a top 3 prospect like Moreno. Not Bradley Zimmer 2.0 like Varsho. I agree, the only saving grace is Varsho in CF for next 3 seasons. Make him bat 9th in 2024, and the Jays need to acquire an above average hitter in LF to complement Varsho in CF.

[SharoneWright]

Bunch of morons.

Never sell on a 22 year old top prospect. Ever.

except of course when you trade a 22 year old top prospect for jose berrios, then it's OK.

also would've loved to trade pearson for anything resembling a serviceable MLB player.

you probably would've also traded vlad after his age 22 season too, with the benefit of hindsight. his value was through the roof at the time; imagine the haul we would have got?

Actually, no. I don’t think I would’ve made any of those 3 trades. I admit, I didn’t like the Martin trade at the time either, from the outside looking in.

The only exception to this rule is if you have internal scouting, which fans and other teams are not privy to, that suggests your player is crashing and burning. It seems this was the case with Martin. So, in hindsight, it was a good trade. I’m pretty convinced there was no internal evaluation that suggested Moreno was about to fall off a cliff.

[Randle McMurphy]

Read on Twitter

Even Kirk in a down year matches up to the one-hit wonder.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Bunch of morons.

Never sell on a 22 year old top prospect. Ever.

we should have gotten a big name player if we were to trade him

[Mehar]

Read on Twitter

Even Kirk in a down year matches up to the one-hit wonder.

Why you do not focus on the whole 2023 year instead? Moreno had a much higher batting average, OPS, SLG, On Base, and RBI's than Kirk as a Rookie Catcher. You love WAR so much. Moreno had a WAR of 4.3, while Fat Kirk had 1.9 for the year. Moreno was Number 1 in all of MLB in Defensive WAR in 2023, which is incredible for a 23 year old Rookie. Not to mention Moreno has one of the best throwing arms in all of MLB. Moreno had one less Homer than Kirk, and not forgetting the fact he was hurt for 3 weeks in August. So, you focus on the last 195/196 PA's to suit your agenda. Not to mention that you are focusing on those 195/196 PA's, when Moreno struggled for a couple of weeks after coming back from his wrist injury which was not fully healed. When his wrist was 100 percent again, he started hitting again. Selective focus on certain Plate Appearances to suit your agenda, like your hero Mike Shillner.

[s e n s i]

Selective focus on certain Plate Appearances to suit your agenda, like your hero Mike Shillner.

yes, no one in this thread is selectively focusing on gabriel moreno's 14-game sample size in the playoffs to suit their own agenda. i have not seen anyone do this.

[Mehar]

Selective focus on certain Plate Appearances to suit your agenda, like your hero Mike Shillner.

yes, no one in this thread is selectively focusing on gabriel moreno's 14-game sample size in the playoffs to suit their own agenda. i have not seen anyone do this.

Those same posters you criticize, repeatedly pointed out how Moreno was Number 1 in MLB in terms of Defensive WAR in 2023. They simply do not focus only on Moreno's post-season stats over 14 games. They also talk about Moreno's stats over the 2023 season as a Rookie Catcher. Moreno's post-season success is just cherry on top of the fact, he was better in every offensive metric over Kirk in 2023 (besides 1 less home run).

Not forgetting the fact Moreno was injured for 3 weeks in August, and he would have probably had more homers than Kirk. Too bad the Jays could not play 14 post-season games this year, because Varsho and Kirk failed to get the job done in big spots, in those 2 embarrassing losses in Minnesota. Not great leadership from those two guys.

[Fairview4Life]

It is a real shame Varsho and Kirk don't --insert nonsense list of intangibles here--

[Cyrus]

One can hope for Varsho to have some beginners luck in next playoffs he's in, cause he didn't have any this year that's for sure! Wait guess it should be sophomore's luck ?

[bluerap23]

Read on Twitter

Even Kirk in a down year matches up to the one-hit wonder.

Why you do not focus on the whole 2023 year instead? Moreno had a much higher batting average, OPS, SLG, On Base, and RBI's than Kirk as a Rookie Catcher. You love WAR so much. Moreno had a WAR of 4.3, while Fat Kirk had 1.9 for the year. Moreno was Number 1 in all of MLB in Defensive WAR in 2023, which is incredible for a 23 year old Rookie. Not to mention Moreno has one of the best throwing arms in all of MLB. Moreno had one less Homer than Kirk, and not forgetting the fact he was hurt for 3 weeks in August. So, you focus on the last 195/196 PA's to suit your agenda. Not to mention that you are focusing on those 195/196 PA's, when Moreno struggled for a couple of weeks after coming back from his wrist injury which was not fully healed. When his wrist was 100 percent again, he started hitting again. Selective focus on certain Plate Appearances to suit your agenda, like your hero Mike Shillner.

Because those numbers don't fit the narrative this apologist is spinning.

[Randle McMurphy]

Read on Twitter

We don't make the playoffs without this clutch hit. What a player.

[s e n s i]

Read on Twitter

We don't make the playoffs without this clutch hit. What a player.

varsho would have whiffed on that

[WaltFrazier]

Some MLB former player on Fan590 morning show today. Missed his name. Said he likes that the WS is returning to old school run manufacturing baseball, most sac bunts in years, the lack of the shift is helping. Asked about Moreno he said he's a star in the making, the Jays undervalued him in the trade and also undervalued Gurriel. And he said Varsho is what he is, good defense but low .200 average hitter. He concluded, I hate to say it but AZ won the trade

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Read on Twitter

We don't make the playoffs without this clutch hit. What a player.

varsho would have whiffed on that

[s e n s i]

Read on Twitter

We don't make the playoffs without this clutch hit. What a player.

varsho would have whiffed on that

even more hilarious that you missed the obvious joke there!

[LBJKB24MJ23]

varsho would have whiffed on that

even more hilarious that you missed the obvious joke there!

no, i got it.