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WaltFrazier wrote:

ItsDanger wrote:

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A player like Vernon knows the game is about people not numbers

Love that Vernon still cares

pilkoids wrote:

Hottie McShotty wrote:John Schneider: "Everyone was aware of our pitching plans going into the game."

*Berríos was asked on the reasoning for his early hook*: "I don't know."

Vladdy on Berrios being removed: “Everybody was surprised.”

That's horse ****. Even Buck was talking about it early in the game.

Players don’t know how do you tell Berrios he’s only going 3 innings before Kikuchi takes over?

You don’t that’s why the manager aka puppet is the buffer between players and the sabrametrics department.

Hottie McShotty wrote:What a waste of resources. Wasted another year of Vladdy and Bo. The people who put this lineup together completely missed the boat. Jays fans should be pissed and deserve better. Major changes need to happen.

Vladdy and Manoah wasted this year themselves. Belt and KK out performed even the most optimistic expectations they had. And this year looks a hell of a lot different if Vlad isn't a sub 1 fWAR player or Manoah isn't the worst starter in the league. Chapman Springer Kirk and Varsho also share some blame as well since they heavily underperformed offensively. But man hard for me to not put this on Vlad he's supposed to be the Matt Olson, Freddie Freeman, Yandy Diaz level guy that carries an offense and is in silver slugger and mvp conversations. He was essentially 2008 Lyle Overbay this year and it's just unacceptable.

Hottie McShotty wrote:What a waste of resources. Wasted another year of Vladdy and Bo. The people who put this lineup together completely missed the boat. Jays fans should be pissed and deserve better. Major changes need to happen.

Vladdy also wasted a year of Vladdy as well, if that makes any sense.
A step back in performance this year (11% in OPS+) was very disappointing as well as no more focus on the field.

JN wrote:

Hottie McShotty wrote:What a waste of resources. Wasted another year of Vladdy and Bo. The people who put this lineup together completely missed the boat. Jays fans should be pissed and deserve better. Major changes need to happen.

Vladdy also wasted a year of Vladdy as well, if that makes any sense.
A step back in performance this year (11% in OPS+) was very disappointing as well as no more focus on the field.

One of the worst baserunners and fielders at his position as well. His dumb play probably costed them their best chance to score today.

Listening to the Phillips audio, I was surprised that he grouped the Varsho bunt, with the Berrios decision, the Vlad pickoff, Bo's poor fielding, Apparently lots of anger out there over Varsho's bunt attempt. I think the anger over that move is more Monday Morning QB than anything else.

Varsho is a great bunter for hits. He is also our lowest average hitter. Rolling things over to the next guy was not a bad try. At worse it got two guys into scoring position, even with 2 outs. And at least we know Kirk will score on a hit from 3rd - not so from 2nd.

JN wrote:Listening to the Phillips audio, I was surprised that he grouped the Varsho bunt, with the Berrios decision, the Vlad pickoff, Bo's poor fielding, Apparently lots of anger out there over Varsho's bunt attempt. I think the anger over that move is more Monday Morning QB than anything else.

Varsho is a great bunter for hits. He is also our lowest average hitter. Rolling things over to the next guy was not a bad try. At worse it got two guys into scoring position, even with 2 outs. And at least we know Kirk will score on a hit from 3rd - not so from 2nd.

I didn't love it cause Gray was throwing a ton of meatballs but at worst it was a sacrifice that would guarantee a run if we got a single. Hell Springer got a sweeper at 79 down the middle and a fastball at 93 down the middle. He rips either of those for a double and Varsho bunt is barely a thought.

Given a day to think about it, I'm not sure I've ever hated a professional sports team more than the 2023 Jays.

JN wrote:Listening to the Phillips audio, I was surprised that he grouped the Varsho bunt, with the Berrios decision, the Vlad pickoff, Bo's poor fielding, Apparently lots of anger out there over Varsho's bunt attempt. I think the anger over that move is more Monday Morning QB than anything else.

Varsho is a great bunter for hits. He is also our lowest average hitter. Rolling things over to the next guy was not a bad try. At worse it got two guys into scoring position, even with 2 outs. And at least we know Kirk will score on a hit from 3rd - not so from 2nd.

Had no real issue with the attempt. He's not a good hitter and he's been an excellent bunter for hits his entire career. He just missed it that time.

JN wrote:Listening to the Phillips audio, I was surprised that he grouped the Varsho bunt, with the Berrios decision, the Vlad pickoff, Bo's poor fielding, Apparently lots of anger out there over Varsho's bunt attempt. I think the anger over that move is more Monday Morning QB than anything else.

Varsho is a great bunter for hits. He is also our lowest average hitter. Rolling things over to the next guy was not a bad try. At worse it got two guys into scoring position, even with 2 outs. And at least we know Kirk will score on a hit from 3rd - not so from 2nd.

I was down on the bunt as well initially and then I remembered Varsho is a **** hitter.

You have to clean house. Please clean house.

Randle McMurphy wrote:

C Court wrote:There was a sense that that this forum was overly negative towards a Blue Jays team which made the playoffs. Seems like we weren’t the only ones.

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I certainly found it interesting when I was labeled as too negative about this team just last week. Just about anybody who actually watched the games regularly hated this team.

My cousin and a friend from Winnipeg are huge Jays fans, but I hadn't talked to either of them about the Jays this season until last week when they were in Toronto for the Yankees series.

They both hated this team. They were really down on Schneider, Atkins, the Varsho trade, Romano, Vlad, Chapman, etc....

So again, we weren't the only ones.

Randle McMurphy wrote:Given a day to think about it, I'm not sure I've ever hated a professional sports team more than the 2023 Jays.

The 1987 USSR world junior hockey team. Not professional, but winners of any of these categories.

The days after the Jays or Raptors are knocked out of the playoffs, I am really pissed. Except with this Jays team, I’m not.

It was really hard for me to be fully invested in this team, even though I watched almost every game.

The Jays need a bunch of changes and upgrades and I’d start with the front office.

JN wrote:Let's hope Berrios is on today.

Of course even if that is the case, you know JS will likely rush it to the pen as soon as possible to show he is doing something in a must win game/

I said this after Berrios had faced a few batters in the bottom of the first, somewhat jokingly (pg 3 of this thread). Little did I know.

I admit I was much more angry, and still am more angry about the Berrios pull than the Jays losing. I was not surprised by the Jays offence sputtering - I had seen enough to expect that - at this point the continued disappointment reduces anger in that regard.

But the Berrios pull seemed so idiotic, so momentum shifting, so offensive to my personal senses of analytics combined with judgment. I know Randle has pointed out the 2020 Shoemaker situation, but Shoemaker is not Berrios... perhaps I should not have been stunned... I didn't follow 2020 team like I did post 2021 onwards.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/why-guerrero-jr-s-baserunning-error-speaks-to-bigger-blue-jays-problems/

OF course, the players wouldn't even notice anyways.

Fairview4Life wrote:

Randle McMurphy wrote:Given a day to think about it, I'm not sure I've ever hated a professional sports team more than the 2023 Jays.

The 1987 USSR world junior hockey team. Not professional, but winners of any of these categories.

How about the 1993 Philadelphia Phillies (I was an Expos fan so I hated them more). Not only for on the field play, but for post career exploits by a number of guys like Schilling and Dykstra.

What bothers me about the Vlad pickoff at 2nd with 2 outs is that there was a runner on 3rd wasn't there? Does he even regularly check where SS are positioned? I seriously wonder if his lack of focus on the bases is fixable or not.

can't have varsho, chapman, biggio in the lineup together. and the dh belt was 0-8. very bad offense