Carpenter weighs in on Jays issues?

Post #1 » by **LittleOzzy** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:53 pm

The Toronto Blue Jays have had attendance issues this season and one former Jay has offered his own thoughts on why that's the case.

Chris Carpenter, who is in Toronto with his St. Louis Cardinals for a three-game interleague series, told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch that the 1994 strike played a role, along with a lack of organizational stability.

"As managers, I had Cito Gaston, Mel Queen, Tim Johnson, Jim Fregosi, Buck Martinez and Carlos Tosca," Carpenter told the Post-Dispatch. "So, I had six managers in six years. (General Manager) Pat Gillick left and then Gord Ash came. Gord Ash left and then came J.P. Ricciardi (and now Alex Anthopoulos.) That's three different GMs. We had two different presidents...

"As pitching coaches, I had Mel (Queen), Mark Connor, Rick Langford, Dave Stewart, Gil Patterson. Every year there were new people. There was no consistency from top to bottom in the organization," Carpenter told the newspaper. "If I was an outsider looking in, I would say, 'What's the plan?' If they can't figure out who's going to own the team, general manage the team, president the team, manage the team, coach the team, and have a plan, it seems like it was a pretty difficult situation to get excited about."

Carpenter was a member of the Blue Jays from 1997 to 2002 and has thrived with the Cardinals, posting a 76-25 regular season record and winning a World Series in 2006. He looks at the Cardinals' own stability as a huge factor in the club's consistency.

"You look at this situation here (with the Cardinals) compared to that situation when I was there. These guys are here to win," Carpenter told the Post-Dispatch. "One pitching coach. One manager. One set of coaches. And I've been here for eight years. Fans here have been fans consistently since they were kids. Their dads brought them. They know what's coming. They know who's going to be here and what type of people who are going to be here. And they know what's going to come out on the field. I don't think that that was the feeling in Toronto."

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=325374

Randle McMurphy · Post #2 » by **Randle McMurphy** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:58 pm

There is a grain of truth in there, but the Jays' main issue over the last 7 years has been that they play in the wrong division.

Hoopstarr · Post #3 » by **Hoopstarr** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:07 pm

I've already been over this here several times but I hope this confirms some things for people who still think his departure was the Jays' fault. He was complaining about Jays management then and he's still taking his shots now. He should just be thankful for Dave Duncan and for playing in the NL.

Post #4 » by **tsherkin** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:32 pm

Is he wrong, though, Hoopstarr? I mean yeah, he orchestrated his own departure, but he's healthy, pitching well and in a good situation. The situation he left hasn't gotten appreciably better. We're still in the AL East, we still have HUGE turnover in our management crew, changes in our budget, our approach, everything. Consistency is definitely not a hallmark of this franchise.

chargerxthirty · Post #5 » by **chargerxthirty** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:16 am

Are you kidding me....

I don't disagree with him for one. Forget all of the changing faces and management. I don't like to think that Chris Carpenter orchestrated his own exit. **** that ****. More like JP Ricciardi mucked it up big time. He had some injury issues, but even through inconsistency proved to be MLB worthy. I remember when he came back, all he was asking for in negotiations was a guaranteed major league contract, and stupid JP wouldn't give him one. He wanted to sign him to a minor league deal and Chris Carpenter basically said, "**** that." .....

I would have too... look what happened when St. Louis got him, gave him and MLB contract @ like 3 mil or something and he won the Cy Young, and contended again and probably should of won it the next season. This has always been one of my most hated moves by JP. I wish we could have had Doc and Carps 1-2.

kelso · Post #6 » by **kelso** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:38 pm

Is Chris Carpenter too young or too short sighted to have looked at the decade and a half before his arrival in Toronto? Since Toronto came into the league they have won just as many World Series Championships as the Cardinals in the same period of time. Won just as many pennants as well ( I think- might be wrong on that one).

I'm not disagreeing with him on the turmoil and changes in this organization, but he doesn't need to throw the Jays under the bus either.

J-Roc · Post #7 » by **J-Roc** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:27 am

I won't say he's wrong because everything is about perception. It's in the Jays' interest to agree with Carp, because stability is something they can control. If the real problem is the AL East, then fans really shouldn't care.

Randle McMurphy · Post #8 » by **Randle McMurphy** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:47 am

J-Roc wrote:I won't say he's wrong because everything is about perception. It's in the Jays' interest to agree with Carp, because stability is something they can control. If the real problem is the AL East, then fans really shouldn't care.

What are you going on about now? The fans shouldn't care about Jays baseball because they need to be a top 3 team in the majors to make the playoffs?

J-Roc · Post #9 » by **J-Roc** » Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:34 pm

Randle McMurphy wrote:
J-Roc wrote:I won't say he's wrong because everything is about perception. It's in the Jays' interest to agree with Carp, because stability is something they can control. If the real problem is the AL East, then fans really shouldn't care.

What are you going on about now? The fans shouldn't care about Jays baseball because they need to be a top 3 team in the majors to make the playoffs?

The excuse we're always told is we lose because we're in the AL East. The suggestion being that nothing will change until we get out of the AL East. Not exactly a reason to care. You have to really be into baseball to watch without concern for winning.

Randle McMurphy · Post #10 » by **Randle McMurphy** » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:49 pm

J-Roc wrote:The excuse we're always told is we lose because we're in the AL East.

That's a legitimate excuse. It's the singular reason why the Jays haven't made the playoffs in 17 years.

The suggestion being that nothing will change until we get out of the AL East. Not exactly a reason to care.

I don't think anybody has ever suggested that. The Jays simply have to be better than the best to get in, not just better than the other 90%. It's very hard to take that extra step, but the team is trying.

You have to really be into baseball to watch without concern for winning.

Maybe, but that sounds like a weak excuse not to be a fan of a very good and exciting team. It's like not being a fan of the Raptors because they can't beat the Lakers or Celtics consistently (only the Jays are a much better version of the Raptors).

J-Roc · Post #11 » by **J-Roc** » Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:02 pm

This team is 4.5 games out of a playoff spot, yet we're talking about trading away our #1 starter. If the Raps or Leafs were that close to accomplishing something great (ie. top 4 team in their conference), they would be looking to obtain talent, not plan for rebuilding a few years away.

Randle McMurphy · Post #12 » by **Randle McMurphy** » Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:27 pm

J-Roc wrote:This team is 4.5 games out of a playoff spot, yet we're talking about trading away our #1 starter. If the Raps or Leafs were that close to accomplishing something great (ie. top 4 team in their conference), they would be looking to obtain talent, not plan for rebuilding a few years away.

#1. It would be irresponsible of Jays management to believe this team could come anywhere close to accomplishing that (making up 4.5 games on two of the best teams in baseball + the others ahead of them). And yet, you should they should be basing their decisions on a longshot like that?

#2. You think following the management approach of the Leafs and Raptors is a good idea?

Don't you ever wonder why those teams are in a state of perpetual mediocrity? They do things for PR (like stupidly signing Shaun Marcum to a long-term deal would be), without any regard for the long-term consequences.

#2. And I'm sorry, but you just don't get it. Obtaining talent would be the point of any Marcum trade. It would just be younger talent at a cheaper cost, and ready at a time when the team could realistically compete with the best teams. And for the record, they should have dealt Lind and Hill last winter for the same reason.

The problem with the Jays (and JP Ricciardi/Paul Godfrey) is that they spent too much time placating fans like you. It led to contracts like Vernon Wells and the Jays' own state of mediocrity. Of course, the irony is that it's fans like you that complain about those things more than anybody else. If you don't want to watch this team, then don't. Nobody wants or needs to hear the whining that goes along with it.

J-Roc · Post #13 » by **J-Roc** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:57 am

Don't worry about me. When the Leafs decided to rebuild a couple of seasons ago, and it was clear to me the players on the ice were not going to be the players who would be playing "when we'd win again", I tuned out. Decided to do other things with my time than watch games. As soon as the Jays fall out of it this year, I'll tune out again. I always tend to tune out once they're out of it.

And none of this makes me any less of a fan. It's just sports. Just as much as trades and rebuilding, it's understood you'll lose fan support when you lose.

Randle McMurphy · Post #14 » by **Randle McMurphy** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:14 am

J-Roc wrote:
And none of this makes me any less of a fan.

Sure it does. You're the exact definition of a fairweather fan.

J-Roc · Post #15 » by **J-Roc** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:25 pm

Randle McMurphy wrote:
J-Roc wrote:
And none of this makes me any less of a fan.

Sure it does. You're the exact definition of a fairweather fan.

"Fan", nonetheless. :wink:

All this talk of building for the future. Do we expect the Red Sox and Yankees to just go away? Is the plan to alternate rebuilding plans with the Rays? What if we're all set in a few years.....then suddenly we have a rash of injuries. Then our guys are too old and we need to start over again.

Post #16 » by **Schad** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:45 pm

J-Roc wrote:"Fan", nonetheless.

All this talk of building for the future. Do we expect the Red Sox and Yankees to just go away? Is the plan to alternate rebuilding plans with the Rays? What if we're all set in a few years.....then suddenly we have a rash of injuries. Then our guys are too old and we need to start over again.

No one said that it was guaranteed...the problem is that there's basically nothing that we can do to chase them down right now. 5.5 games might not sound like a hell of a lot, but it's a pretty considerable difference, that being between four games above .500 and fifteen. Assuming that Boston keeps pace, it'll take around 96 wins to get to a one-game playoff. At 40-36, that means we would need to go 56-30 the rest of the way, for a .651 winning percentage over 86 games. In other words, we need to be the best team in baseball, while playing against the toughest schedule in baseball, to be in the hunt, and if one team ups their pace, we're still ****.

Frankly, I'll take the chance that we can build a winner over miraculously turning this team into one now; we could completely gut our minor league system and still finish several games out.