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A just had a random thought, is there a correlation between outfielders who win Gold Glove and playing in home field domes? Maybe having a dome means less variables to changing weather gives OFers less chance of committing errors..?

A few players pop in my mind:

Ichiro in Safeco Field
Torii Hunter in the old Metrodome
Vernon wells in Rogers Centre/Skydome

I know these OFers are great athletes to begin with... but does it give them an advantage?

Discuss.

I wouldn't think so. It's not like fielding percentage and errors are a huge factor when it comes to picking Gold Glovers. They'll usually just pick some high-profile players that make lots of flashy plays.

According to Fangraphs, Toriiiiiiiii Hunter is at best an average fielder. He has declined every year since one great year in 2003 UZR-wise -- http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?pl ... ngadvanced. That hasn't stopped him from winning GGs every year from 2001-2009. Obviously he wins it because of the flashy plays, but the range numbers don't back it up. What the voters are missing is that one reason he makes those flashy plays in the first place is because of his poor range and/or routes; someone with good instincts would get to the ball in plenty of time. At least when Vernon Wells was winning his 3 GGs, he was a legitimately great fielder range-wise -- http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?pl ... ngadvanced. So it made sense that we rarely saw him have to dive or what not even though people kept stupidly complaining about that.

To answer the OP, no I don't think there's a correlation. Devon White won his 7 on different fields as did Hunter. Edmonds, Lofton, and Sizemore won their's on grass (the playing surface). Like I said above, it's mostly about reputation and highlights.

This may not be that popular an opinion, but I actually like that GG's go to flashy, rather than substantive, OFs. To me, good OF defense, from a fan perspective, is a bit like good interior linemen in football - you never see it if you're watching the ball. For OFers it's all about break and jump and that's all occuring right off the crack of bat before the camera, or your eye if you're there, even look at the guy. So I'm glad we're getting better at tracking who truly has good range and OF defense, but I'll take the guy like Torii making jaw-dropping catches more often than most as my GGer simply because he makes the plays I see on the highlight reels. I certainly wouldn't want to pay a premium in terms of salary for it, but I'm totally content to give that kind of meaningless postseason award out for it.

More importantly, why is a defensive award worth a gold, while the offensive award only gets a silver? Its high time we have a bronze bullpen reliever to give recognition to relief pitchers who don't get saves.

satyr9 wrote:This may not be that popular an opinion, but I actually like that GG's go to flashy, rather than substantive, OFs. To me, good OF defense, from a fan perspective, is a bit like good interior linemen in football - you never see it if you're watching the ball. For OFers it's all about break and jump and that's all occuring right off the crack of bat before the camera, or your eye if you're there, even look at the guy. So I'm glad we're getting better at tracking who truly has good range and OF defense, but I'll take the guy like Torii making jaw-dropping catches more often than most as my GGer simply because he makes the plays I see on the highlight reels. I certainly wouldn't want to pay a premium in terms of salary for it, but I'm totally content to give that kind of meaningless postseason award out for it.

TSN top 10 plays of the year is a meaningless award. When it impacts HOF decisions, it's not so meaningless, and I'm sure it's meaningful to the players who bust their ass to be the best and then watch chumps get the accolades.

Even though you wouldn't pay a salary premium for a flashy outfielder, the fans identify with award winners and the agents will use that leverage to increase a player's salary, so handing out awards to them will cause you to pay a premium.

Would you base your MVP decisions on who has a nicer home-run trot?

distracted wrote:

satyr9 wrote:This may not be that popular an opinion, but I actually like that GG's go to flashy, rather than substantive, OFs. To me, good OF defense, from a fan perspective, is a bit like good interior linemen in football - you never see it if you're watching the ball. For OFers it's all about break and jump and that's all occuring right off the crack of bat before the camera, or your eye if you're there, even look at the guy. So I'm glad we're getting better at tracking who truly has good range and OF defense, but I'll take the guy like Torii making jaw-dropping catches more often than most as my GGer simply because he makes the plays I see on the highlight reels. I certainly wouldn't want to pay a premium in terms of salary for it, but I'm totally content to give that kind of meaningless postseason award out for it.

TSN top 10 plays of the year is a meaningless award. When it impacts HOF decisions, it's not so meaningless, and I'm sure it's meaningful to the players who bust their ass to be the best and then watch chumps get the accolades.

Even though you wouldn't pay a salary premium for a flashy outfielder, the fans identify with award winners and the agents will use that leverage to increase a player's salary, so handing out awards to them will cause you to pay a premium.

Would you base your MVP decisions on who has a nicer home-run trot?

I understand your argument and, while I don't share it, I don't really disagree either. I'm actually glad someone called me on it.

Mostly, I don't buy the HOF argument for OF specifically. Did Dawson squeak in because of unearned GG's? I honestly don't think it was a factor. Did Winfield or Puckett get in undeservedly 'cause they had a string of GG's (whether you liked their D or not, I'm certain they weren't top 3 in each consecutive year they won in actual defense)? Did a lack of GG's harm the chances of Gwynn or Rice? I'm saying I don't think anyone takes GGs seriously for OF in the first place, although due to the tremendous amount of incompetence that votes on baseball's HOF it wouldn't surprise me if there were a few out there. When we're discussing MI, I'm right there with you, but the casual fan has no relationship to good OF defense so give the award for the visible stuff, since it's meaningless anyway.

I would also argue that the GG guys are not lacking in effort. They may not be the best overall defenders, but they do excel in one aspect of the position and they do have to show effort to do so. I wish we'd all find ways to give more credit for the guys who truly are great at their position (like A.Rios in RF his 2nd last year here. He was really an amazing RFer with very very little flash), but I still have zero problem giving a GG to the guy who makes the most exciting catches and personally I don't even think that's where the award goes anymore. Voters are lazy and once they pick a guy twice he has to actually lose the award to stop winning it, which to me is a far greater problem than working on recognizing true defensive value over flashy value in the OF.