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He was one of (if not the) the most consistent pitchers we had last year, he's KILLING it this year (yeahyeah NL), and he's only 29. It didn't make sense to me then and it sure as hell doesnt make sense to me now.

we got a cant-miss prospect that has been destroying pitchers in every league he has ever played in, and will be a mainstay at 3rd base for years. we all liked marcum too, but these are the types of trades, risks, you have to take to get better and stay better.

obviously it doesn't help that our rotation hasn't been lights out, but a prime romero, morrow, drabek, cecil will be good enough to pitch this team into contention imo. lawrie fills a major hole at 3rd and likely at the top half of the order in his prime. he will be more valuable in his prime than marcum would have been.

Because we have five quality starting pitchers younger than him that are major league ready and have better raw stuff (Morrow, Romero, Cecil, Stewart, Drabek). And, beyond this we have three other quality starting pitchers younger than him that are major league ready with comparable raw stuff (Reyes, Villaneuva, litsch). Beyond that, we have plenty more quality starting pitchers younger than him that are not quite major league ready but have better raw stuff (McGowan, Alvares, McGuire, etc...).

On the other hand, our third base situation consists of E5, who had 8 errors in about twenty games, who lost his job to Jayson Nix, a journeyman who was dropped from another teams 40 man roster. Jayson Nix, in turn is hitting about .190. We had no viable third basemen in the system (Emaus? No). So, why not fill this position of need with a 21 year old that was raking in AAA and experts are now ranking in the top 5 or 10 prospects in all of baseball.

The reasoning was that Marcum presented the most potential returning value for a player who wasn't "off limits". Especially among our pitchers, where we were and still are pretty loaded with starters for a rebuilding team. Marcum was a guy who 1. was coming off a great season, 2. presented injury risk (more than the usual starter), 3. was at the sweet spot in his service timeline where he'd given us our money's worth and then become attractive to buyers because he was under control for two more years, and 4. the Jays had always prized Lawrie going back to the draft when they just missed out on him.

Marcum struggled against AL East opposition. He's a great pitcher, but Boston and New York eat pitchers like him up. If you've paid any attention Anthopolous has preached adding more traditional power pitchers that pitch off of their fastballs.

Well aside from the fact that the team got a star prospect back, wasn't one of the biggest issues his service time? The Jays had less control over Marcum than any of their other starters, so between that and the wealth of SP depth in the minors Marcum was the guy who made the most sense to trade. It's a cliché, but you have to give something to get something, and aside from the draft there's no way to get a guy like Lawrie without giving up something good.

Hoopstarr wrote:The reasoning was that Marcum presented the most potential returning value for a player who wasn't "off limits". Especially among our pitchers, where we were and still are pretty loaded with starters for a rebuilding team. Marcum was a guy who 1. was coming off a great season, 2. presented injury risk (more than the usual starter), 3. was at the sweet spot in his service timeline where he'd given us our money's worth and then become attractive to buyers because he was under control for two more years, and 4. the Jays had always prized Lawrie going back to the draft when they just missed out on him.

Yup. And while Marcum was a very good pitcher, I'd rather have a 21 year old who independent evaluators have called a superstar-in-waiting, rather than a good 29 year old starting pitcher with somewhat worrisome mechanics.

I think the Jays actually undervalued Marcum at the time, and I said as much. Lawrie busting out and (hopefully) sticking at 3B lessens that a bit, but a super affordable 3.5 WAR starter who had a 3.72 ERA from 2007-2010 pitching in the AL East is pretty darn good. As you can see by how Drabek, Cecil, etc, have done this season, there is no such thing as a guaranteed pitching prospect. Good teams hold on to the Shaun Marcum's of the world until they become too expensive for what they produce (which Marcum wasn't in our case). Really the only negative with Marcum is injury concern, not so much with his history (he's only had TJS and no other real significant injury to my knowledge), but moreso his mechanics and delivery. That is really a judgment call.

It wasn't a bad trade by any stretch, and if Lawrie pans out then no one in Jays land will remember Marcum a few years from now, but I think fans were really sleeping on how good Marcum is/was. Then again, can't really complain with Lawrie + Villanueva as the return (I'm guessing that deal will just combine with each other eventually).

Brett Lawrie.

That is all.

Maybe they were worried about his TJ surgery and some of the minor arm problems he had last season. I know I was. He seemed a little risky in that regard, but he's definitely tearing it up this season.

Mustard called it before the season when he said that Marcum would kill it in the NL. We got a future star prospect out of the deal. No brainer IMO.

We clearly miss him, our pitching is brutal this year

From what I can remember Anthopolous traded Marcum in anticipation of a Grienke deal. He traded Marcum, Grienke joined him in Milwaukee, and here we are in this mess.

Good pitching is hard to find in this league

but we'll talk further once we find out how good Lawrie is.

J Dilla wrote:
From what I can remember Anthopolous traded Marcum in anticipation of a Grienke deal. He traded Marcum, Grienke joined him in Milwaukee, and here we are in this mess.

Not at all.

Marcum being traded was a pure baseball decision. Only (Please Use More Appropriate Word) media people were pushing the Greinke to Toronto rumors.

J Dilla wrote:We clearly miss him, our pitching is brutal this year

From what I can remember Anthopolous traded Marcum in anticipation of a Grienke deal. He traded Marcum, Grienke joined him in Milwaukee, and here we are in this mess.

Good pitching is hard to find in this league

but we'll talk further once we find out how good Lawrie is.

good pitching is plentiful in the post-steroids era. Even Pat Gillick, once mentioned on a Jays Broadcast, when given two players with same qualities,projections; with the only difference is ones a pitcher and the other is a batter, he would take the batter.

Pitching is plentiful nowadays, with the league ERA at 3.80. Having Marcum in our lineup this year may have presented a handful more wins, but in reality, we'd still be roughly five games behind Boston.

hmm let me see...

Forgive me for being late to the party. I was a Jays fan growing up, but haven't really followed baseball in recent years. However I getting back into it and have been following the Jays lately.

We got Lawrie for Marcum? All I know is when I look at Lawrie, I see a beast stud. Marcum has the stuff of a good 3rd starter, no?

Marcum's stuff isn't electric, but it's good, and he changes speeds well and has excellent control of all of his pitches. His change up is among the best in the game and he throws it a lot. Can't go wrong with a good change up.

He can't go 7 innings every outing, but he's quite a ways better than a 3rd starter to me. Dunno.

Ok, so maybe a 2nd starter on a decent team. Still, a guy who can't go really deep in games and doesn't have great stuff is somewhat limited come playoff time typically.

I took one look at Lawrie with his strength and balance and hands and got goosebumps, almost.

Haven't watched the baseballs in some time but I've always had a good eye for baseball talent...Lawrie looks like a 15-year face of the franchise type.

Hes a 3rd starter on a playoff team, kinda like in Milwaukee (a playoff team) hes the 3rd starter......hmmm. Funny how that works.