Bautista vs Carter (Vince, not Joe)

Parataxis · Post #1 » by **Parataxis** » Sat Jul 9, 2011 7:30 pm

So on the Raptors board (and I'm realising that there's probably lots of cross pollination) there's a debate going on about who the 'bigger' (more popular, well known/liked, bigger draw, etc...) Toronto sportsman, Bautista currently (HR king, Top ASG vote getter ever) or Vince Carter when he was a Raptor (multiple All-star, increased popularity of basketball).

I'm guessing this forum will have a slightly different POV. Anybody care to weigh in?

JoeyBats · Post #2 » by **JoeyBats** » Sat Jul 9, 2011 7:38 pm

Vince was iconic because his flash created a lot of fans to be interested in the Raptors. The Raptors was a new team and needed Vince to survive in the NBA. I for one was a huge Vince Carter fan growing up, but he was never the best player in the NBA. Jose on the other hand, is arguably the best player in baseball. He may as well win the AL MVP this season, which Vince was never able to do in the NBA.

James_Raptors · Post #3 » by **James_Raptors** » Sat Jul 9, 2011 7:47 pm

Carter was bigger (yes I know Jose just set a MLB all-star voting record, and his stats are incredible) but Bautista is puting up numbers that put him in the league as the best in-the-game. Carter, even when he was leading the league in all-star voting and being labelled as possibly the heir apparant to MJ, was a top 5 (or worse) player during his peak years. Baseball is watched at a higher level in Canada but on the flip-side, a dominant player in basketball is more impactful to his team. So take a second and imagine if you had Jose's level of play in a sport like basketball. Talk about where amazing happens!

Post #4 » by **J.Kim** » Sat Jul 9, 2011 8:10 pm

To be honest, it's a bad subset of pollers to be asking "who's bigger in terms of popularity". You'd need to go out and ask the average fan and not basketball/baseball fans.

In my mind, Carter's popularity levels were higher than Bautista's currently. But, Bautista has outperformed him in their respective sports and can attain popularity levels that far exceed Carter's at the rate that he's going.

s e n s i · Post #5 » by **s e n s i** » Sat Jul 9, 2011 8:37 pm

in terms of overall appeal, yea vince was bigger. bautista is easily better though.

what really irks me about that thread is the sheer amount of uneducated idiots who use reasoning such as 'carter led the team to the playoffs and bautista hasn't' or 'bautista is putting up these numbers for a bottom feeder' to support their argument that vince was better. he was bigger in terms of popularity, but because of acrobatic dunks, rather than dominating his respective league like jose has.

Trilogy · Post #6 » by **Trilogy** » Sat Jul 9, 2011 10:15 pm

chocolateSensi wrote:in terms of overall appeal, yea vince was bigger. bautista is easily better though.

what really irks me about that thread is the sheer amount of uneducated idiots who use reasoning such as 'carter led the team to the playoffs and bautista hasn't' or 'bautista is putting up these numbers for a bottom feeder' to support their argument that vince was better. he was bigger in terms of popularity, but because of acrobatic dunks, rather than dominating his respective league like jose has.

Plus the infinitely more difficult road the Jays have to make the playoffs in the MLB.

I wonder how the Jays would be received if baseball had a similar playoff system to the NBA. They've been a consistently above average team for a while and probably would have made the playoffs many of the past years.

I don't mind the premium placed upon playoff seeding in baseball, I follow soccer so I appreciate the consistent top level play needed to be successful. But in terms of the general North American sports fan it's something that isn't really appreciated.

As for the question, Vince was clearly more popular, but Bautista is clearly the better player.

Randle McMurphy · Post #7 » by **Randle McMurphy** » Sat Jul 9, 2011 10:24 pm

Yeah, what others have said. Vince was the most popular player in the NBA for a period, but he was never the best player in his sport like Bautista is.

Post #8 » by **Schad** » Sat Jul 9, 2011 10:43 pm

Trilogy wrote:Plus the infinitely more difficult road the Jays have to make the playoffs in the MLB.

I wonder how the Jays would be received if baseball had a similar playoff system to the NBA. They've been a consistently above average team for a while and probably would have made the playoffs many of the past years.

If the playoffs included eight teams from each league, as they do in the NBA, this would be our playoff seeding from 1998 onward:

2010: 7th.
2009: would not qualify.
2008: 7th.
2007: 7th.
2006: 7th.
2005: 8th.
2004: would not qualify.
2003: 7th.
2002: 8th.
2001: 8th.
2000: 7th.
1999: 6th.
1998: 5th.

So even with the unbalanced schedule, we'd have made the playoffs 11 times in 13 years, but never as better than a fifth-seed. Of course, we'd then we taking in quite a bit more money, at which point we might not have spent all of those years as the third wheel in the East.

K1NG · Post #9 » by **K1NG** » Sat Jul 9, 2011 11:21 pm

There'd probably be less bias if this was posted in the OT Canada board.

Weems · Post #10 » by **Weems** » Sat Jul 9, 2011 11:24 pm

Accidentally voted for the wrong dude (Bautista), not that it matters.

Carter was bigger, Bautista is better. Half man, entirely amazing.

OvertimeNO · Post #11 » by **OvertimeNO** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:12 am

A point I wanted to make in that Raptors thread, but didn't, because that thread makes me tired, is that Carter had the benefit of one of the most effective hype machines out there in the NBA and its corporate affiliates. So I concede that it's quite possible VC made a greater impact in his prime here than Bautista did.

But how much of that impact was VC, and how much of it was the sporting equivalent of a Goldberg chant pumped into the PA system? Whereas I think we can all agree that almost all of the notoriety that Bautista gets is earned with his bat. Unless you think that idiotic Mafia commercial was good promo.

s e n s i · Post #12 » by **s e n s i** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:49 pm

from the raps board

chyau.00 wrote:verses this guy whos having ONE good year? our own JOSE calderon had a pretty good year one year too. with his ft% and assist to to ratios. ranked one of the highest of all time with his efficiencies. doesnt stop ppl from wanting him gone.

lol

LLJ · Post #13 » by **LLJ** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:44 pm

It's amazing how good the NBA hype machine is when it gets rolling. When you look at Carter's stats those years, they're really good but hardly out of this world.

Skin Blues · Post #14 » by **Skin Blues** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:17 pm

It wasn't just Carter's numbers, but the Slam Dunk Contest that really made him huge. Then he went at leap-frogged a 7-footer. So yeah.. Bautista is clearly much better, but Carter had more hype.

snomeister · Post #15 » by **snomeister** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:45 pm

chocolateSensi wrote:from the raps board

chyau.00 wrote:verses this guy whos having ONE good year? our own JOSE calderon had a pretty good year one year too. with his ft% and assist to to ratios. ranked one of the highest of all time with his efficiencies. doesnt stop ppl from wanting him gone.

lol

Pretty sad. There's a lot of complaining on the Rap's board about the ignorance of puckheads, but that thread just goes to show there's ignorant fans of all sports.

CreaM · Post #16 » by **CreaM** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:52 pm

Carter was more popular while Bautista is the better player in their respective sports. Its really that simple.

evilRyu · Post #17 » by **evilRyu** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:24 pm

wow.. i just read the thread, and can't believe some of the responses.

J-Roc wrote:Vince was so good, management felt they needed to build around him to win a championship.

Jose Bautista is considered a stopgap during a long rebuilding process.

RedX wrote:If u want to argue who is "better" you can say Bautista, but he only has to be better at 1 thing. Home runs.

Vince
---------------
Playmaking
2pt shot
3pt shot
Double teams
Triple teams
Rebounds
Assists
Defense

To me "better" in this case is a complete joke. How can you even proudly compare the 2?

Randle McMurphy · Post #18 » by **Randle McMurphy** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:43 am

evilRyu wrote:wow.. i just read the thread, and can't believe some of the responses.

J-Roc wrote:Vince was so good, management felt they needed to build around him to win a championship.

Jose Bautista is considered a stopgap during a long rebuilding process.

I can't say I miss this bandwagon fan posting his ridiculous statements here.

InfamousD · Post #19 » by **InfamousD** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:57 pm

Let's be real here. Vince Carter in his 2nd season alone averaged over 26 points shooting 47% from the field and 40% from 3 point line. He was a player that did not take long to develop and played really well. In reality a lot of the Raptors teams that did decent did not have any business making the playoffs. Personality wise Vince Carter was not the best person, but people need to cut him some slack. Jose has only been doing this for a year and a half. I want a larger sample size before I declare him the best, even though hes making a great case for it.

Post #20 » by **Schad** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:31 pm

InfamousD wrote:Let's be real here. Vince Carter in his 2nd season alone averaged over 26 points shooting 47% from the field and 40% from 3 point line. He was a player that did not take long to develop and played really well. In reality a lot of the Raptors teams that did decent did not have any business making the playoffs. Personality wise Vince Carter was not the best person, but people need to cut him some slack. Jose has only been doing this for a year and a half. I want a larger sample size before I declare him the best, even though hes making a great case for it.

Vince had a pretty short peak as a Raptor, though. His second and third seasons were excellent, but his final three years and change with the club weren't that great...still quite good, but not elite, and the only time they made the playoffs after his third season was with Vince injured (that was the year that we finished 12-2 and made the playoffs on the final day of the season). Bautista might not have been elite for long at this point, but Vince wasn't really, either. And while Vince had more seasons of sustained good play, Bautista's peak is quite a bit better than Carter's.

Who's the bigger name in Toronto sports for their era