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For me, easily the biggest disappointment of the year. He's playing for his contract options to be picked up and his production has actually dropped from last year. I really hope he picks it up in the second half but at this point, I think AA will decline both options and offer him arbitration to get the draft picks. (Would Hill decline?)

Don't get me wrong, I like Hill as a player. He plays with tons of heart, has above average defense and runs out every ground ball with maximum effort but the production is simply not there to justify the 8 million $ option for next year. Looking at the FA list for next year, there seem to be only short-term options. Hechavarria is still about 2 years away as is by no means a sure thing.

So, what do you propose AA do with the 2b position for 2012?

silverhill27 wrote:For me, easily the biggest disappointment of the year. He's playing for his contract options to be picked up and his production has actually dropped from last year. I really hope he picks it up in the second half but at this point, I think AA will decline both options and offer him arbitration to get the draft picks. (Would Hill decline?)

Don't get me wrong, I like Hill as a player. He plays with tons of heart, has above average defense and runs out every ground ball with maximum effort but the production is simply not there to justify the 8 million $ option for next year. Looking at the FA list for next year, there seem to be only short-term options. Hechavarria is still about 2 years away as is by no means a sure thing.

So, what do you propose AA do with the 2b position for 2012?

Short term replacement. Hill does not play with heart anymore, is not above average defensively anymore, and is a locker-room cancer. He hardly seems interested in addressing his mistakes at the plate (he is still doing the same things wrong). I don't think he accepts arbitration, even thou AA offers it for the pick. I think both parties are looking for a clean break at the end of the year.

Homer Jay wrote:Short term replacement. Hill does not play with heart anymore, is not above average defensively anymore, and is a locker-room cancer. He hardly seems interested in addressing his mistakes at the plate (he is still doing the same things wrong). I don't think he accepts arbitration, even thou AA offers it for the pick. I think both parties are looking for a clean break at the end of the year.

I am as disillusioned and upset with hill as any other Jays fan who has watched him since his rebound post-concussion season. However, this is the first I've heard that he no longer plays with heart, and is a locker-room cancer.

Is this a fact? Has it been commented on by Wilner or in the blogosphere? The only way I see him as a "cancer" is the way the Vernon was - just apathetic and uninspiring, a vanilla (no pun intended) player who is overpaid and going through the motions. Of course, I feel that was (and is) much more true of Vernon than Hill, who I believe has a passion for the game and is hardly a disturbance to the team.

Hummus wrote:

Homer Jay wrote:Short term replacement. Hill does not play with heart anymore, is not above average defensively anymore, and is a locker-room cancer. He hardly seems interested in addressing his mistakes at the plate (he is still doing the same things wrong). I don't think he accepts arbitration, even thou AA offers it for the pick. I think both parties are looking for a clean break at the end of the year.

I am as disillusioned and upset with hill as any other Jays fan who has watched him since his rebound post-concussion season. However, this is the first I've heard that he no longer plays with heart, and is a locker-room cancer.

Is this a fact? Has it been commented on by Wilner or in the blogosphere? The only way I see him as a "cancer" is the way the Vernon was - just apathetic and uninspiring, a vanilla (no pun intended) player who is overpaid and going through the motions. Of course, I feel that was (and is) much more true of Vernon than Hill, who I believe has a passion for the game and is hardly a disturbance to the team.

Hill was, with Millar and Arnsberg, one of the leaders in the locker-room revolt against Cito at the end of 2009. The fact that in 2010, even batting under .200 for a good stretch, Cito stuck with him day in and day out, is a testament to Cito's professionalism, and Aaron's lack of it.

Keith Law was on the Fan today and I agree with his assessment of Hill. He's basically stuck thinking that he's a power hitter when he isn't one. To my untrained eyes, his swing seems much longer than when he 1st came up and his plate discipline has followed a similar regression. So, until he stop believing he's something that he isn't, I suspect more of the same will happen.

Homer Jay wrote:Hill was, with Millar and Arnsberg, one of the leaders in the locker-room revolt against Cito at the end of 2009.

#1. Where did you get this information? I remember that mutiny involving most of the team, including Roy Halladay.
#2. If that's true, that only makes me think better of him.

Anyway, I don't want Hill back if the last two years are any indication of what to expect from him going forward. As dirtybird said, he's stuck between approaches and I'm not sure if he's capable of getting out of it. The problem for the Jays is that Hill will likely accept arbitration if they offer it to him, so he may be back in 2012.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/article/704851

It did not involve most of the team. Apparently the revolt was mainly centered around B.J. Ryan and his friends. He was really popular with the other players. Some people felt Cito had demanded Ricciardi release him even though he was not fully back from his injury yet, and should have been given the rest of the year to try to back into shape. Instead Ryan was removed from his support structure and Cito effectively ended his career. (Note that is not my opinion, I think Ryan was done).

The fact I look at the list of those involved and look at the epic failure later on of all those involved (Wells, Arnsberg, Hill). I see justice served. I see Cito's name on a Stadium wall... I see the others as footnotes in baseball history...

Last season he wasn't hitting the ball hard. He's doing a better job of that this season, but he's not getting the results. He'll never hit 35+ HR again, but his numbers should drastically improve in the second half.

Homer Jay wrote:http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/article/704851

It did not involve most of the team. Apparently the revolt was mainly centered around B.J. Ryan and his friends. He was really popular with the other players. Some people felt Cito had demanded Ricciardi release him even though he was not fully back from his injury yet, and should have been given the rest of the year to try to back into shape. Instead Ryan was removed from his support structure and Cito effectively ended his career. (Note that is not my opinion, I think Ryan was done).

The fact I look at the list of those involved and look at the epic failure later on of all those involved (Wells, Arnsberg, Hill). I see justice served. I see Cito's name on a Stadium wall... I see the others as footnotes in baseball history...

BJ Ryan was long off the team by the time that happened, so unless they all held grudges for that long over an ineffective bullpen pitcher, I don't really buy it. And that says nothing about Aaron Hill taking a central role in it, but if he did, it's hard to hold it against him. It is Cito Gaston, after all.

Whether it is the contract or not, something is clearly affecting Hill. You can tell by looking at him turn double plays which he is usually solid in. He made 3 bad turns in two games and I've never seen him do one bad turn in his whole tenure.

Change of scenery is needed, you definately do not pick up the option; but if he was willing to sign for half his option year salary, then I do it. Otherwise, I wish him all the best, and hope to see him return to the team as a bench manager or something.

If the goal is winning and winning only he has absolutely no place on this team.

With that said I expect him to be back next season.

I think we need to consider moving Escobar to 2nd and Adeiny Hechavarria to the bigs.

Defensively I think the team would improve.

As bad as Hill has been hitting, Hech would be WAY worse. I mean, a .261 OBA in AA, bad SB%. No matter how good he is at SS it would be a disaster overall. He needs more time to learn how to hit. Also, Yunel is way too good at SS and has a very solid bat, so we can't move him to 2B without an MLB ready replacement. This isn't like Bourjos taking over for Hunter, it'd be way more disrespectful and premature than that, especially with how young Yunel is.

Randle McMurphy wrote:

Homer Jay wrote:http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/article/704851

It did not involve most of the team. Apparently the revolt was mainly centered around B.J. Ryan and his friends. He was really popular with the other players. Some people felt Cito had demanded Ricciardi release him even though he was not fully back from his injury yet, and should have been given the rest of the year to try to back into shape. Instead Ryan was removed from his support structure and Cito effectively ended his career. (Note that is not my opinion, I think Ryan was done).

The fact I look at the list of those involved and look at the epic failure later on of all those involved (Wells, Arnsberg, Hill). I see justice served. I see Cito's name on a Stadium wall... I see the others as footnotes in baseball history...

BJ Ryan was long off the team by the time that happened, so unless they all held grudges for that long over an ineffective bullpen pitcher, I don't really buy it. And that says nothing about Aaron Hill taking a central role in it, but if he did, it's hard to hold it against him. It is Cito Gaston, after all.

Richard Griffin on the seeds being B.J. Ryan: http://thestar.blogs.com/baseball/2009/ ... ously.html

I love the part how Ryan actually confronted Cito demanding more playing time (even thou he was beyond awful) and Cito had him released the next day. From what I remember Cisco and Queen always commented on how Cito gave them 100% control (and accountability) of the staffs, and Arnsberg clearly didn't like Cito's lack of diplomacy with the media when pitchers stunk it up.

Cito clearly never loved pitchers. I remember the epic fights with David Wells vividly, I think they even threw at each other once in the clubhouse after one.

Hech is not even close to being ready. He'll probably need at least 2 more years.

Relentless88 wrote:Hech is not even close to being ready. He'll probably need at least 2 more years.

His glove is... I think it could be a possibility long term. For now we have Hill this year and next I'm pretty sure...

problem is hill is a non-power hitter in power hitter swing mode. his overall uppercut to his swing creates serious problems and leads to him popping the ball up at an alarming rate. the year where he had a great comeback was somewhat of a fluke, all his home runs were just over the left field wall. not sure aaron hill has ever hit a "bomb" in his whole career.

his mechanics though were very good so it allowed for him to make contact and drive the ball instead of being underneath it and hitting it straight up. he doesn't seem to want to give this up and make the change either, so by all accounts unless he has some sort of break through aa will probably let him walk if he believes he can fill that hole adequately which shouldn't be hard to replace a 2b who doesn't contribute much offensively and isn't nearly exceptional defensively. hope aaron gets it together though, would love for him to remain on the ball club.

does anyone else notice aaron constantly squinting his eyes to the point where it is almost comical? i've wondered if he is having some difficulty seeing the ball out of the pitcher's hand.

I was praying some how we can land Jose Reyes or Rickie Weeks! We are really hurting at the 2B position. I know Hill was great but he has not been the same since he returned! Kind of wish we left Brett playing 2B!

kavan wrote:I was praying some how we can land Jose Reyes or Rickie Weeks! We are really hurting at the 2B position. I know Hill was great but he has not been the same since he returned! Kind of wish we left Brett playing 2B!

If we did land one of those guys we would have holes at every other position (Because it would take Bautista AND something to get a young superstar that has production out of the 2B/SS spot)

I agree with wishing we left Lawrie playing 2nd.

I dont want Weeks. Horrendous defender.

And as for Hech - its been said that he could already be the best fielding shortshop in the majors from the minute he joined. He needs his bat to catch up to at least "passable"