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SI_JonHeyman Jon Heyman
teams are showing interest in votto. speculation around game is #bluejays will be in mix. hes toronto product. #reds

http://twitter.com/#!/SI_JonHeyman/stat ... 6326679552

This makes a lot of sense and there have been murmurs about this elsewhere. Question is, what do you think he would cost?

Hechavarria
+ Thames/Snider
+ One of our best pitching prospects
+ Young Major league player/One of our best prospects not named Lawrie

That's the starting offer I'd make.

I think AA would turn it into a 3-team deal somehow.

Big discussion on this topic here.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=995445&page=9

Reds fans apparently want Romero + Alvarez + Thames. LOL.

AirCanada_1515 wrote:Reds fans apparently want Romero + Alvarez + Thames. LOL.

If we were rich on front-line starters I'd consider doing that.

The whole point of getting Votto from the Jays perspective would be to add to the MLB team, not subtract from it, so I'd imagine everyone on the farm (including d'Arnaud even though Cincy has no need for him) would be up for grabs while the important pieces on the big league roster would be kept. Will Cincy settle for a prospects-only package? Depends on what they direction they want to go in, but since they have the leverage (i.e. they have the player under contract for two more years) they can pretty much dictate the direction they want to go in. They'd be better off keeping Votto for two years, assuming they could afford him, and let him walk afterwards. They might get a playoff berth or two within that time.

I said this in another topic but i think the Reds don't want prospects only packages. They're a good team, probably the favourites in the NL central with Pujols and Fielder out of the division. They just seem to have hit their pay oll ceiling and are worried that Votto will bolt in 2 years, they're gonna ask for MLB players in return who are also cheap so that they can re-allocate Votto's salary on someone else.

They'll definitely ask for Lawrie and i wouldn't do that. I might do Romero straight up and maybe throw in a B prospect, some of you might balk at that but ultimately its a 2.9 WAR pitcher(even though it might more valuable than that given he does it in the AL east) vs Votto who will probably be the best round player in Baseball all things considered for the next 3-5 years.

Michael Bradley wrote:The whole point of getting Votto from the Jays perspective would be to add to the MLB team, not subtract from it, so I'd imagine everyone on the farm (including d'Arnaud even though Cincy has no need for him) would be up for grabs while the important pieces on the big league roster would be kept. Will Cincy settle for a prospects-only package? Depends on what they direction they want to go in, but since they have the leverage (i.e. they have the player under contract for two more years) they can pretty much dictate the direction they want to go in. They'd be better off keeping Votto for two years, assuming they could afford him, and let him walk afterwards. They might get a playoff berth or two within that time.

I don't really agree with the first point in this post. The Jays aren't willing to sell the farm to get better now. They won't move better assets just because they're in the minors, over guys who are on the team now. For example: if for some reason they had the choice of giving up Thames and Arencibia or Marisnick and d'Arnauld. They would clearly opt for Thames and Arencibia, as they're lesser talents, and less valuable.

In theory getting Votto is nice and all but I don't think it's at all practical for the team right now. It just doesn't make sense to give up a tonne of assets for a 1B, especially with guys like Fielder and Pujols on the market this offseason. Even if the team can't get either of those other two big names it's easy enough to find serviceable 1B/DH types. I really don't want the team to sell the farm for Votto.

vaff87 wrote:

Michael Bradley wrote:The whole point of getting Votto from the Jays perspective would be to add to the MLB team, not subtract from it, so I'd imagine everyone on the farm (including d'Arnaud even though Cincy has no need for him) would be up for grabs while the important pieces on the big league roster would be kept. Will Cincy settle for a prospects-only package? Depends on what they direction they want to go in, but since they have the leverage (i.e. they have the player under contract for two more years) they can pretty much dictate the direction they want to go in. They'd be better off keeping Votto for two years, assuming they could afford him, and let him walk afterwards. They might get a playoff berth or two within that time.

I don't really agree with the first point in this post. The Jays aren't willing to sell the farm to get better now. They won't move better assets just because they're in the minors, over guys who are on the team now. For example: if for some reason they had the choice of giving up Thames and Arencibia or Marisnick and d'Arnauld. They would clearly opt for Thames and Arencibia, as they're lesser talents, and less valuable.

I never said they would move better prospects just to avoid trading MLB talent. Arencibia and Thames are not important pieces to the Jays roster. Bautista is. Romero is. Lawrie is. And so on. JPA and Thames are bit players, if anything. My point is, they won't trade Romero for example (creating a huge hole in the rotation) just to add Votto. It would make no sense, unless the team's pitching depth was on par with Tampa's, which it is not. If the option is trading Romero or Molina/Hutchison, it would probably be the latter. If it was a choice between Lawrie and Gose/d'Arnaud, it would be the latter. And so on. Cincy wouldn't even consider JPA or Thames or Cecil or whoever as important pieces, and the Jays obviously would have no problem including those players in the trades.

keep in mind it is just the cincy fans wanting those pieces, if jockerty was to ask aa for such pieces i hope the dialogue ends there. i am weary of trading ANYTHING of value for votto when we can simply just make a run at prince or even a lance berkman (or albert). votto's contract will soon be as expensive as whatever prince gets so not sure i get the logic. i really wouldn't even want to give up alvarez knowing the circumstance. if there were no good free agents available i would get the point, but cincy is picking the wrong offseason to deal a star first baseman IMO.

my guess is that votto (if acquired) would be traded for after all the smoke clears in regards to free agency. why wouldn't you just sign a free agent and package some of the pieces you could have used on votto to get another front of the rotation arm?

Michael Bradley wrote:

vaff87 wrote:
I don't really agree with the first point in this post. The Jays aren't willing to sell the farm to get better now. They won't move better assets just because they're in the minors, over guys who are on the team now. For example: if for some reason they had the choice of giving up Thames and Arencibia or Marisnick and d'Arnauld. They would clearly opt for Thames and Arencibia, as they're lesser talents, and less valuable.

I never said they would move better prospects just to avoid trading MLB talent. Arencibia and Thames are not important pieces to the Jays roster. Bautista is. Romero is. Lawrie is. And so on. JPA and Thames are bit players, if anything. My point is, they won't trade Romero for example (creating a huge hole in the rotation) just to add Votto. It would make no sense, unless the team's pitching depth was on par with Tampa's, which it is not. If the option is trading Romero or Molina/Hutchison, it would probably be the latter. If it was a choice between Lawrie and Gose/d'Arnaud, it would be the latter. And so on. Cincy wouldn't even consider JPA or Thames or Cecil or whoever as important pieces, and the Jays obviously would have no problem including those players in the trades.

Fair enough. You don't see many star for star trades in any sport these days.

as much as i like toronto kids, if i have to choose between gutting my system for votto, or giving up no one but having to overpay fielder.... well its not close

AirCanada_1515 wrote:Reds fans apparently want Romero + Alvarez + Thames. LOL.

What is funny about that? That is what I'd ask for too. The Reds have absolutely zero need to trade Votto...when you have no pressing need to move a player that is as good as Votto, you're not going to pick up the phone and ask for anything less than a huge package. That is why this speculation is stupid and pointless.

DonYon wrote:

AirCanada_1515 wrote:Reds fans apparently want Romero + Alvarez + Thames. LOL.

If we were rich on front-line starters I'd consider doing that.

That's crazy. Even if we were rich on front line starters, I'd say that's too steep a price. Romero put up some really good numbers despite pitching in the hardest division in Baseball, in which 2 teams in NY and Boston were leading the majors in offense. As well, the Rogers Centre is a hitters park so will elevate pitcher stats in a bad way.

Then you add in the sheer bad luck Romero's had, with all the blown saves and shoddy fielding leading to losses, and you can easily conceive that he would be a 20 game winner had he played for another team. He's a legit top of the order starter. Then you add Alvarez, who's barely into his 20's and already making a mark for himself in the majors. This guy may end up being the next great Jays pitcher. Thames, I couldn't care less but he's got good value...

Votto is definitely the type of player we need. I read an article that said we were like 150runs away from making the playoffs. Votto himself could make up a big chuck of that. We can't gut the team for him tho. Everyone except lawrie, romero, arencibia, bautista, lind, would be in play for me tho.

That article meant you need a difference between how many runs you get and how many runs you give up of at least 150. We need to increase our offence and pitching. That stat is hard to go by because there was that one series where we were -30 against the Red Sox.

I just looked it up and we were -60 versus Boston this year.

We were +42 versus everybody else.

AirCanada_1515 wrote:Reds fans apparently want Romero + Alvarez + Thames. LOL.

At first I laughed at such an offer for Votto. No way Romero ever gets traded in any form or matter. Most reports suggest that Cincy covets a bat, an MLB ready pitcher, a near MLB ready pitching prospect and a high upside pitching prospect in the minors as a starting point for Votto and I'd also guess that they'd also want a SS prospect or a guy that can step in right away and play SS for them next season. High price to pay for Votto but we have what it takes though if we're really serious about getting Votto. Hmmm..

Nicolino, Lind, Cecil, McGuire and Escobar for Votto? Or is that pushing it?

Votto >>> Romero and we have enough depth to lose Alvarez and Thames. I think you have to do that deal if we lose out on Fielder and Pujols. Though I'd much prefer it if we threw in Lind and kept Alvarez. Romero, Lind and Snider sounds about right

Though there is really no reason for the Reds to trade Votto