The JPA/ Travis D'Arnaud debate

baulderdash77 · Post #1 » by **baulderdash77** » Sat May 19, 2012 3:44 pm

Travis D'Arnaud is our top prospect and quite possibly a future all star player. However I can't see the team giving up JPA's spot in the batting order to give him a MLB spot.

It's been noted that JPA has made a huge leap this year in his ability to frame pitches and he's turning out to be an average or better defensive catcher.

If TDA doesn't make it to the majors this September his top prospect status is going to die on the vine.

Is this a good time to either sell high on JPA or sell before he declines on TDA? We won't be able to keep them both and there's a limited window on our situation.

What would you do and what do you think?

HangTime · Post #2 » by **HangTime** » Sat May 19, 2012 4:22 pm

The Jays could always have them split time at at C/DH. See what you can get for Mathis.

You could have personal catchers for your pitchers, while the other DH's.
Day game after a night game you switch it up regardless of who is pitching.
It could keep the 2 fresh longer.

BigLeagueChew · Post #3 » by **BigLeagueChew** » Sat May 19, 2012 5:26 pm

i think we can and should keep both of them.

It's very early in his career but Gomes might be able to help JPA and d'Arnaud. If JPA and d'Arnaud we're to split time at DH and catcher you would need a 3rd catcher on your roster, just in case.

Hopefully we get to see what Gomes can do at catcher and 1st base this year, he looked good at catcher in spring training and at 3rd base the last 2 games.

edit: the depth our team has at catcher right now is amazing

dagger · Post #4 » by **dagger** » Sat May 19, 2012 5:58 pm

BigLeagueChew wrote:i think we can and should keep both of them.

It's very early in his career but Gomes might be able to help JPA and d'Arnaud. If JPA and d'Arnaud we're to split time at DH and catcher you would need a 3rd catcher on your roster, just in case.

Hopefully we get to see what Gomes can do at catcher and 1st base this year, he looked good at catcher in spring training and at 3rd base the last 2 games.

edit: the depth our team has at catcher right now is amazing

Look at today's lineup - JPA and DH, Mathis catching, Gomes at 3B. Scratch Mathis and replace him with d'Arnaud. Gomes then becomes the all-purpose backup. I wonder whether the team will have him shag some fly balls as well because he could take the roster spot Ben Francisco occupies. They tried to make EE an outfielder, but Gomes looks more athletic. He certainly has an arm, probably better than Thames.

Lateral Quicks · Post #5 » by **Lateral Quicks** » Sat May 19, 2012 6:00 pm

d'Arnaud still projects to be a better overall hitter. Perhaps not as much power as JPA, but likely much fewer strikeouts and a better OBP. He's also the better defensive catcher, JPA's improvements this year notwithstanding. The dilemma is that d'Arnaud's projection is just that - a projection, while Arencibia is having spotty success already in the bigs.

I wouldn't worry about d'Arnaud losing value this year. He'll get a call-up in September at the very least. If he starts next year in AAA though, that's when he'll start to lose some value.

Al_Oliver · Post #6 » by **Al_Oliver** » Sat May 19, 2012 7:47 pm

Lateral Quicks wrote:d'Arnaud still projects to be a better overall hitter. Perhaps not as much power as JPA, but likely much fewer strikeouts and a better OBP. He's also the better defensive catcher, JPA's improvements this year notwithstanding. The dilemma is that d'Arnaud's projection is just that - a projection, while Arencibia is having spotty success already in the bigs.

I wouldn't worry about d'Arnaud losing value this year. He'll get a call-up in September at the very least. If he starts next year in AAA though, that's when he'll start to lose some value.

why would he lose value? Arencibia repeated AAA after winning the MVP

Lateral Quicks · Post #7 » by **Lateral Quicks** » Sat May 19, 2012 9:21 pm

The difference is JPA wasn't all that in his first year at AAA, so he didn't have as much value to lose. I think the assumption in this thread is that d'Arnaud will have an excellent year at AAA.

BigLeagueChew · Post #8 » by **BigLeagueChew** » Sat May 19, 2012 10:47 pm

baulderdash77 wrote:Travis D'Arnaud is our top prospect and quite possibly a future all star player. However I can't see the team giving up JPA's spot in the batting order to give him a MLB spot.

It's been noted that JPA has made a huge leap this year in his ability to frame pitches and he's turning out to be an average or better defensive catcher.

If TDA doesn't make it to the majors this September his top prospect status is going to die on the vine.

Is this a good time to either sell high on JPA or sell before he declines on TDA? We won't be able to keep them both and there's a limited window on our situation.

What would you do and what do you think?

Good post and topic.Just wondering why we can't keep both of them?

baulderdash77 · Post #9 » by **baulderdash77** » Sat May 19, 2012 11:13 pm

BigLeagueChew wrote:
Good post and topic.Just wondering why we can't keep both of them?

There's not enough AB's to go around and now or soon is the time to maximize value from TDA's prospect prospective (prospects have a best before date and TDA is getting close to his) or from JPA before he loses AB's to TDA (if that happens)

kwamebargnani · Post #10 » by **kwamebargnani** » Sat May 19, 2012 11:40 pm

What games are you watching? His defense is league worst.

akakalakin · Post #11 » by **akakalakin** » Sat May 19, 2012 11:57 pm

Travis has alot to prove still, the decision is easy for now. JP

Sense alot of fanboys for Travis.

vaff87 · Post #12 » by **vaff87** » Sun May 20, 2012 2:58 am

One reason why I don't quite understand why we can't keep both, is that catcher is unlike any other position, they quite often wear down over the course of a season. And they have to play through nagging injuries all the time. If the Jays had two good catchers, they would have a chance to both be fresh come late in the season.

I understand the stance that "it's a poor use of value", but at the same time, what honestly could the Jays get for JP? I find it hard to believe that they would get that much.

kwamebargnani · Post #13 » by **kwamebargnani** » Sun May 20, 2012 4:55 am

vaff87 wrote:One reason why I don't quite understand why we can't keep both.

There are already a lot of posts posted on this board explaining why it would be a terrible move. And it is a terrible move.

Hamyltowne · Post #14 » by **Hamyltowne** » Sun May 20, 2012 9:27 am

kwamebargnani wrote:
vaff87 wrote:One reason why I don't quite understand why we can't keep both.

There are already a lot of posts posted on this board explaining why it would be a terrible move. And it is a terrible move.

Tell me about it. Would it be imperious to ask for this thread to be locked?

Yes, it would be.

Still, the board can't go three weeks without asking this question and the answer is always in the form of either-or. It's not surprising to see references to the many other threads with the very same topic.

Anyway, I vote D'Arnaud. JPA could very well have a terrific sophomore season. Bully for him, I say. It will just raise his trade value. It's a win-win.

Wo1verine · Post #15 » by **Wo1verine** » Sun May 20, 2012 9:44 am

I'd keep JP only because TDA has more trade value, and i'd like to see this team trade away a prospect or two for an proven all-star at some point considering AA can't spend meaningful $$ on free-agents..

flatjacket1 · Post #16 » by **flatjacket1** » Sun May 20, 2012 6:06 pm

Its too early to tell, lets see a full season of JPA before we rush to make any decisions. JPA's OBP before tonights game is .003 higher than last year.

He always has gone through hot and cold streaks so lets wait and see.

I'd like to remind people JPA is on pace for more errors and passed balls than last season.

bigscrims · Post #17 » by **bigscrims** » Sun May 20, 2012 8:02 pm

One of the regular jays columnists floated the idea of moving Arencibia to 1st when D'Arnaud is ready to be promoted... maybe not a bad idea with Arencibia's defense. I know it's been said that his fundamentals behind the plate have improved, in regards to calling the game and framing pitches, but from the beginning of the season it has seemed like he's struggled taking throws from the outfield. I feel like he's cost Bautista 2-3 assists already. Also, as the previous poster mentioned, his passed balls have become more common recently.

flatjacket1 · Post #18 » by **flatjacket1** » Sun May 20, 2012 9:01 pm

bigscrims wrote:One of the regular jays columnists floated the idea of moving Arencibia to 1st when D'Arnaud is ready to be promoted... maybe not a bad idea with Arencibia's defense. I know it's been said that his fundamentals behind the plate have improved, in regards to calling the game and framing pitches, but from the beginning of the season it has seemed like he's struggled taking throws from the outfield. I feel like he's cost Bautista 2-3 assists already. Also, as the previous poster mentioned, his passed balls have become more common recently.

If .285 OBP is bad at the catcher position, he becomes worse offensively than Lind at the 1B position.

JPA is worth way more in a trade than a conversion to another position.

bigscrims · Post #19 » by **bigscrims** » Sun May 20, 2012 9:13 pm

flatjacket1 wrote:
If .285 OBP is bad at the catcher position, he becomes worse offensively than Lind at the 1B position.

JPA is worth way more in a trade than a conversion to another position.

I'm not advocating that JPA should, or by any means needs to be moved to another position. The idea was more in regard to the future, at some point if/when D'Arnaud makes it impossible to not call-up. If Arencibia emerges as a +.250, 25+, big rbi hitter, than maybe it becomes an option. I don't think he's a great defensive catcher, but it gives you a way to keep his bat in the lineup, and he would be able to fill in for D'Arnaud on his days off. He could also DH, but some guys struggle not playing defensively.

flatjacket1 · Post #20 » by **flatjacket1** » Sun May 20, 2012 9:21 pm

bigscrims wrote:
flatjacket1 wrote:
If .285 OBP is bad at the catcher position, he becomes worse offensively than Lind at the 1B position.

JPA is worth way more in a trade than a conversion to another position.

I'm not advocating that JPA should, or by any means needs to be moved to another position. The idea was more in regard to the future, at some point if/when D'Arnaud makes it impossible to not call-up. If Arencibia emerges as a +.250, 25+, big rbi hitter, than maybe it becomes an option. I don't think he's a great defensive catcher, but it gives you a way to keep his bat in the lineup, and he would be able to fill in for D'Arnaud on his days off.

Heres the thing though, his bat being in the lineup should only be with a (C) beside it. If he played 1B last year he'd be worse than Lind was last season. It is a 25 run difference in positional adjustments on Fangraphs between a C and a 1B. That means his fWAR goes down around 2.5, so from 0.9 to -1.6, or near the worst in the league out of 1B. To put that into a comparison, Lind last year put together a 0.5 fWAR season.

Even this season, he'd be on pace for a scrub season. Right now at the catcher position we can bear with his average bat. At 1B, its just terrible.