Anthopoulos Trade History

[Randle McMurphy]

It took long enough to make this, so I figured I might as well make a thread out of it. There was some talk in the game thread (mostly derived from anger/disappointment about the current version of the team, it seemed) that Anthopoulos has not been a good trader over his career as the Jays GM. As you can see, the facts don't exactly bear that out. In fact, it's been quite the opposite. I didn't obviously include every minor trade, but I think everything of any real significance is there. If you see anything that I missed, let me know and I'll include it.

Acquired Kyle Drabek, Travis d'Arnaud, and Michael Taylor (who turned into Brett Wallace) for Roy Halladay and $6MM (Necessary/Asset Maximization)
Considering AA would have gotten nothing for Roy Halladay other than a few picks, getting two of the top three prospects in the Phillies system (Drabek, Taylor) and Travis d'Arnaud was a great get. He later turned Taylor (who is 27 and still in AAA) into Brett Wallace (who is a terrible 1B in the majors) and then Wallace into Anthony Gose (who still retains significant prospect status and potential). You rarely win when you trade away a HOF pitcher for prospects, but this trade was about reducing the damage of his departure. It was a fine deal from the Jays' perspective, the kind of deal that I only wish Colangelo would have had the foresight to make with Chris Bosh.

Acquired Brandon Morrow for Brandon League and Johermyn Chavez (Win)
Turned a mediocre reliever and a nothing prospect (Chavez fizzled out in AA in 2011 and has made no progress since then) into a good #2/#3 starter. Huge win.

Acquired Yunel Escobar and Jo-Jo Reyes from Braves for Alex Gonzalez, Tim Collins, and Tyler Pastornicky (Win)
Got a good young SS in Escobar who contributed 6+ wins in just over 2 seasons for the Jays for a stopgap SS in Gonzalez (who would have been gone two months later), a reliever, and a SS prospect (who has gotten to the majors, but likely won't be able to hit or field well enough to stay there). Another huge win, especially when you consider the team friendly contract they were able to sign him to after that.

Acquired Anthony Gose for Brett Wallace (Win)
Brett Wallace has been worth -1.3 WAR in the majors so far in his career. He's just brutal and I don't know how much longer he'll last as a MLB player. Even if Gose never learns to hit, he should still manage a MLB career due to his exceptional defense and speed. At just 22, he still clearly has his prospect status. This turned out to be the right call by AA, even if it was one I disagreed with at the time.

Acquired Rajai Davis for Danny Farquhar and Trystan Magnuson (Win)
Got a decent reserve OF for minor league relievers that haven't accomplished a thing. Magnuson is actually back in the Jays' organization in AA. They may have ended up using Davis way too much, but there's no question the Jays came out ahead of the A's here.

Acquired Miguel Olivo for cash (Win)
Essentially traded $500K for a compensation draft pick. AA gamed the system here. A definite win.

Acquired Carlos Villanueva for cash (Win)
Got a guy who served as a very good stopgap SP and long reliever for two seasons and contributed two wins for basically nothing. Another win.

Acquired Brett Lawrie for Shaun Marcum (Win)
I was very critical of this deal at the time it was made, but it has proven to be one of AA's best in his run. He moved a starting pitcher at the peak of his value (and a guy whose effectiveness dropped almost immediately) for our franchise third basemen. Lawrie hasn't hit particularly well in the majors yet, but with his elite defense, he'll be worth a ton more than Shaun Marcum ever would have been for this team (especially because Marcum can't even stay healthy any longer). Enormous win.

Acquired Mike Napoli and Juan Rivera for Vernon Wells and his 4 year/86M contract (Win)
Got rid of Vernon Wells' ridiculous contract (which nobody ever thought he could do) for two useful players (including one in Napoli who was actually a better player than Vernon Wells). I'm not sure that a GM can make a better trade than this one.

Acquired Frank Francisco for Mike Napoli (Loss)
A mistake that somewhat diminished the previous deal, but it can be argued that considering the Jays had no intention of contending in 2011, they were better off with the draft pick they got from Francisco. I wouldn't make that argument (as I think Napoli was a vastly superior player to Lind at the time and could have been the DH this team was/still is waiting for), but I understand what he was going for. First real loss.

Acquired Colby Rasmus and some scrubs for Jason Frasor, Zach Stewart, Marc Rzepcyznski, Octavio Dotel, and Corey Patterson (Win)
We traded a scrub OF, three relievers (including one that eventually came back to us in Frasor and another in Rzep who has been demoted to AAA for performance reasons) and a starting pitching prospect who has shown he can't hack it at the MLB level for our starting CF. Colby Rasmus may not have reached his full potential yet (and he may never), but it was well worth these guys to find out whether he could. And he's a far superior option to anybody else we could have been using at the position in the last two years. A definite win, though it could have looked even better had Colby broken out at some point.

Acquired Kelly Johnson for Aaron Hill and John McDonald (Loss)
A trade of two struggling 2B for each other. One bounced back with his new team, one didn't. You could call this a loss, but Aaron Hill was awful in his final two years for the Jays and showed no signs of improvement. And I bet the Jays are wishing they kept Kelly Johnson around right now. Even his shell would be better than the guys they're throwing out there in 2013 so far.

Acquired Sergio Santos for Nestor Molina (Jury's still out)
Got a MLB reliever for a SP prospect who hasn't progressed past AA yet. Sergio Santos hasn't been able to stay healthy, though. Can't say either team won or lost this deal yet.

Acquired Steve Delabar for Eric Thames (Win)
Got a decent MLB reliever for a platoon outfielder that can't play defense (therefore giving him little value at all). A win in my mind.

Acquired Brad Lincoln for Travis Snider (Loss)
Got a MLB reliever for a MLB OF. I'd say this is a loss myself because I find this to be a waste of an asset, but it all depends on what Travis Snider amounts to in the majors.

Acquired J.A. Happ for Francisco Cordero, Ben Francisco, Asher Wojciechowski, David Rollins, Joe Musgrove, Carlos Perez, and Kevin Comer. (Jury's still out)
I liked this deal as I think Happ will end up being more valuable to this team than any of these other minor prospects would have been, but I suppose we'll have to wait and see what they turn into.

Acquired Jose Reyes, Josh Johnson, Mark Buehrle, John Buck, and Emilio Bonifacio for Yunel Escobar, Henderson Alvarez, Jeff Mathis, Adeiny Hechavarria, Jake Marisnick, Justin Nicolino, and Anthony DeSclafani (Jury's still out)
The jury is still out on most of the guys the Jays traded away (as most are either young players or prospects), but in theory, this was a huge major league upgrade at the team that nobody disputed at the time it was made. In fact, some thought it was so bad for the Marlins/good for the Jays that they rather ridiculously wanted it vetoed by Selig. It instantly turned the Jays into contenders on paper. It is neither a win or a loss at this point. If none of these players helps the Jays make the playoffs in the next 3-5 years and one of those young players that they traded away emerges into something good, this could turn out to be a loss, but we're not at that point yet.

Acquired R.A. Dickey, Josh Thole, and Mike Nickeas for Travis d'Arnaud, Noah Syndergaard, Wuilmer Becerra, and John Buck (Jury's still out)
Like the last one, the jury is still out on this deal. It will depend on what d'Arnaud and Syndergaard amount to in the majors and what R.A. Dickey helps the Jays accomplish over the next three years.


I count ten wins (including some massive ones), three losses (Napoli for Francisco, Hill for KJ, Snider for Lincoln), a necessary/asset maximization one (Halladay for prospects), and four that the jury is still out on. AA's career as the Jays' GM (especially his reputation as a trader) will likely come down to those deals he made last winter, but there's little question that his trades have been positive on the whole for this organization since the end of 2009.

[spykelee]

Looks good to me, just a typo, we acquired Anthony Gose for Brett Wallace, and may I be the first to say, thank god on that one.

[Randle McMurphy]

Looks good to me, just a typo, we acquired Anthony Gose for Brett Wallace, and may I be the first to say, thank god on that one.

True, fixed that. The Taylor/Wallace/Gose series of trades has been a net positive for the Jays considering Taylor and Wallace's failures. Gose likely carries significantly more value than both right now.

[spykelee]

Looks good to me, just a typo, we acquired Anthony Gose for Brett Wallace, and may I be the first to say, thank god on that one.

True, fixed that. The Taylor/Wallace/Gose series of trades has been a net positive for the Jays considering Taylor and Wallace's failures. Gose likely carries significantly more value than both right now.

No question.

A bit risky at the time as Wallace had high praise as being a high IQ hitter. That hasn't even come close to happening. And Taylor I think did break camp with... Oakland maybe? But I don't think he's even in the league presently. @ 27 years old that certainly isn't getting the job done. Like you said, even if Gose never learns to hit, he'll probably still end up holding much higher value than either of the aforementioned guys have attained.

Personally, I believe he'll be a decent contact hitter, but with his speed, so long as he isn't striking out all the time, that should be just fine. I'm getting anxious to see him in light of our awful start, ready or not...

[Waylon Mercy]

I dont see how you can claim any of his wins as massive when most are of the
4th OF, bullpen, 5th starter, questionable prospects variety.

As for the Vernon Wells trade I don't see any genius behind it. He did what any sane GM
would have done when taking over a team with a bad contract he notified all 30 teams he was
available and found a sucker in the Angels. I think that speaks for how stupid the Angels were
more than anything. Trading Napoli for trash still stings.

As for the Marlins trade you can count it as a win even though he almost brought it down
because he had to include Mathis. Jose Reyes alone is worth more then any of the trash
we gave up.

Trading 2 of our better prospects and assets for a 38 year old pitcher with a lack of a track record
and many considered a fluke went against sports common sense. Surely those assets could be used
in a smarter deal. Just like trading Molina for an unproven closer when there is only around 5 truly
reliable closers.

The jury is still out on the Halladay deal but its not looking good so far. But it raises the question
should a GM be excused for making a deal that looked good at the time or be blamed for not
getting the results from it?

[Randle McMurphy]

I dont see how you can claim any of his wins as massive when most are of the
4th OF, bullpen, 5th starter, questionable prospects variety.

Yeah, if you ignore the Morrow deal, the Escobar deal, the Lawrie deal, the Wells deal, and the Rasmus deal, you might say that. But I didn't ignore them.

As for the Vernon Wells trade I don't see any genius behind it. He did what any sane GM
would have done when taking over a team with a bad contract he notified all 30 teams he was
available and found a sucker in the Angels. I think that speaks for how stupid the Angels were
more than anything. Trading Napoli for trash still stings.

Even managing to find a taker for that awful contract was a huge win for this organization.

As for the Marlins trade you can count it as a win even though he almost brought it down
because he had to include Mathis. Jose Reyes alone is worth more then any of the trash
we gave up.

I think the deal made all kinds of sense. It turned the Jays from a mediocre team on paper to something resembling a contender. But if the Jays don't end up winning with those players at some point and one of the prospects amounts to something good, people will not remember it well.

Trading 2 of our better prospects and assets for a 38 year old pitcher with a lack of a track record
and many considered a fluke went against sports common sense. Surely those assets could be used
in a smarter deal.

Were there other NL Cy Young winners available to add to the rotation that I wasn't aware of?

The jury is still out on the Halladay deal but its not looking good so far. But it raises the question
should a GM be excused for making a deal that looked good at the time or be blamed for not
getting the results from it?

I like to evaluate trades at the time they were made and understand the rationale behind them. If you do that with the Halladay trade, you would understand that AA did the best he could with that deal. There was nothing else that could be done considering the impending rebuild. Keeping him wasn't any kind of a real option.

[Randle McMurphy]

Looks good to me, just a typo, we acquired Anthony Gose for Brett Wallace, and may I be the first to say, thank god on that one.

True, fixed that. The Taylor/Wallace/Gose series of trades has been a net positive for the Jays considering Taylor and Wallace's failures. Gose likely carries significantly more value than both right now.

No question.

A bit risky at the time as Wallace had high praise as being a high IQ hitter. That hasn't even come close to happening. And Taylor I think did break camp with... Oakland maybe? But I don't think he's even in the league presently. @ 27 years old that certainly isn't getting the job done. Like you said, even if Gose never learns to hit, he'll probably still end up holding much higher value than either of the aforementioned guys have attained.

Personally, I believe he'll be a decent contact hitter, but with his speed, so long as he isn't striking out all the time, that should be just fine. I'm getting anxious to see him in light of our awful start, ready or not...

Taylor is reportedly being called up tomorrow to replace Chris Young. While he's hit some in the PCL, he's really not much of a prospect anymore. And Wallace is back in AAA because he can't hit MLB pitching.

I don't know if Gose will be a decent contact hitter (he isn't yet), but he better learn how to be if he wants to maximize his abilities.

[Skin Blues]

Overall I think AA has done a great job but I feel like you're not giving enough attention to some of the failed trades, especially the apologist tone in the Napoli for Francisco deal. "it can be argued that considering the Jays had no intention of contending in 2011, they were better off with the draft pick". That's BS and you know it, we would have been far better off keeping Napoli and his 5.3 WAR (or else why was the Escobar trade a positive since we didn't need his 6 WAR?). Or since we were out of contention, could have traded him for a better prospect than a comp pick and saved the $4M that we spent on a relief pitcher "in a year where we had no intention of contending".

Only reason Gose has more value than Wallace or Taylor is because he's 5 years younger and hasn't had as much time to fail, yet. He's certainly not a sure bet to have a real MLB career. But sure... at this point I'd rather have the 22 year old prospect than the 27 year old failed prospect.

Hill for KJ turned out to be an enormous loss. The D'Backs have already got 7+ WAR from Hill in less than 2 seasons and we could have had him until the end of this season with the club options he had remaining, or declined the options and re-signed him even cheaper, as Arizona did. You claimed this one as a loss but we're not talking a binary win/loss here, we're talking about magnitude, and this one was much bigger than you make it out to be, especially considering the garbage that we started the season with at 2B.

We also spent $7.5M on Rajai Davis who has contributed 0.1 WAR in 3 seasons. Not so sure that's a win, as spending $100K or whatever Magnuson and Farquhar would have cost us over that span, might have been more cost effective in the long run.

But again... overall, I think AA has done a good job with the roster and has basically had an epic string of bad luck this season. I also don't claim to know what makes a good group of coaches, but if we're to believe that hitting coaches and pitching coaches, and managers and everything have a tangible effect on the team, then maybe having a bunch of inexperienced guys wasn't the best idea. In this sense I have real questions about his choices for the coaching staff, but admittedly have no actual idea how effective each of Gibbons/Mottola/Walker/etc have been.

[Waylon Mercy]

I dont see how you can claim any of his wins as massive when most are of the
4th OF, bullpen, 5th starter, questionable prospects variety.

Yeah, if you ignore the Morrow deal, the Escobar deal, the Lawrie deal, the Wells deal, and the Rasmus deal, you might say that. But I didn't ignore them.

As for the Vernon Wells trade I don't see any genius behind it. He did what any sane GM
would have done when taking over a team with a bad contract he notified all 30 teams he was
available and found a sucker in the Angels. I think that speaks for how stupid the Angels were
more than anything. Trading Napoli for trash still stings.

Even managing to find a taker for that awful contract was a huge win for this organization.

As for the Marlins trade you can count it as a win even though he almost brought it down
because he had to include Mathis. Jose Reyes alone is worth more then any of the trash
we gave up.

I think the deal made all kinds of sense. It turned the Jays from a mediocre team on paper to something resembling a contender. But if the Jays don't end up winning with those players at some point and one of the prospects amounts to something good, people will not remember it well.

Trading 2 of our better prospects and assets for a 38 year old pitcher with a lack of a track record
and many considered a fluke went against sports common sense. Surely those assets could be used
in a smarter deal.

Were there other NL Cy Young winners available to add to the rotation that I wasn't aware of?

The jury is still out on the Halladay deal but its not looking good so far. But it raises the question
should a GM be excused for making a deal that looked good at the time or be blamed for not
getting the results from it?

I like to evaluate trades at the time they were made and understand the rationale behind them. If you do that with the Halladay trade, you would understand that AA did the best he could with that deal. There was nothing else that could be done considering the impending rebuild. Keeping him wasn't any kind of a real option.

But you did choose to ignore that League became an All-Star after the trade and the Rasmus trade
helped the Cardinals win the World Series. Im not denying that AA won some of these trades but
massive is not the right word for it. That word should be reserved for franchise altering trades.

Yes RA Dickey won the NL CY Young last year that doesnt change the fact that he was 38 has a lack
of a track record played in a different league and was considered to be a fluke/feel good story by many.
If he was 30 and had a few dominant seasons under his belt people would have been able to stomach it
better.

As for the Halladay trade I will give AA some leeway because he walked into a situation where he
wanted out and that diminished his value and we dont know what the other offers were. TDA and
Gose might even be good players. I would have still liked to seen us get 1 proven MLB player out
of the deal.

We should also mention the big trade for Justin Upton December 2011 that AA didnt pull
the trigger on.

[Randle McMurphy]

Overall I think AA has done a great job but I feel like you're not giving enough attention to some of the failed trades, especially the apologist tone in the Napoli for Francisco deal. "it can be argued that considering the Jays had no intention of contending in 2011, they were better off with the draft pick". That's BS and you know it, we would have been far better off keeping Napoli and his 5.3 WAR (or else why was the Escobar trade a positive since we didn't need his 6 WAR?). Or since we were out of contention, could have traded him for a better prospect than a comp pick and saved the $4M that we spent on a relief pitcher "in a year where we had no intention of contending".

I hated the Napoli for Francisco deal from the day it was made. I even spent much time arguing how bad it was with nearly anybody I could find (including Mike Wilner who, of course, ludicrously tried to suggest Lind was a better player than Napoli so we didn't need him). It wasn't good and made as much sense to me then as it does now (which isn't much). So don't paint me as an apologist just because I suggested there was an actual rationale behind it. It was one I certainly didn't agree with, but it's there.

Only reason Gose has more value than Wallace or Taylor is because he's 5 years younger and hasn't had as much time to fail, yet. He's certainly not a sure bet to have a real MLB career. But sure... at this point I'd rather have the 22 year old prospect than the 27 year old failed prospect.

If Emilio Bonifacio can have a 5+ year MLB career with nothing more for baseball skills than speed, Anthony Gose can too. And Gose actually plays elite defense in CF instead of awful defense at nearly every position there is, so some team should be able to find some use for him even if he can never hit much of anything.

The Jays seemingly made the right call on both Taylor and Wallace. The only thing left to see is whether they made the right call on Gose, too.

Hill for KJ turned out to be an enormous loss. The D'Backs have already got 7+ WAR from Hill in less than 2 seasons and we could have had him until the end of this season with the club options he had remaining, or declined the options and re-signed him even cheaper, as Arizona did. You claimed this one as a loss but we're not talking a binary win/loss here, we're talking about magnitude, and this one was much bigger than you make it out to be, especially considering the garbage that we started the season with at 2B.

I agree. It would have been great to have that Aaron Hill in Toronto (though I think his change of scenery to Arizona played no small part in his resurgence). But if you're going to talk about magnitude with the negatives, you can easily do it with plenty of positives (which I didn't, despite there being some massive wins in these trades). I just stuck with straight wins and losses to not complicate things.

We also spent $7.5M on Rajai Davis who has contributed 0.1 WAR in 3 seasons. Not so sure that's a win, as spending $100K or whatever Magnuson and Farquhar would have cost us over that span, might have been more cost effective in the long run.

This is a look at the trades themselves, not necessarily the contracts. Rajai was also over-used the past two seasons in my mind and it damaged his potential value to this team.

But again... overall, I think AA has done a good job with the roster and has basically had an epic string of bad luck this season. I also don't claim to know what makes a good group of coaches, but if we're to believe that hitting coaches and pitching coaches, and managers and everything have a tangible effect on the team, then maybe having a bunch of inexperienced guys wasn't the best idea. In this sense I have real questions about his choices for the coaching staff, but admittedly have no actual idea how effective each of Gibbons/Mottola/Walker/etc have been.

I can't speak to any of this. But if he got experienced coaches, I suspect people would probably be blaming them all the same for the struggles and calling them ineffective retreads. In the end, the responsibility comes down to the players actually playing the game.

[Randle McMurphy]

But you did choose to ignore that League became an All-Star after the trade and the Rasmus trade
helped the Cardinals win the World Series. Im not denying that AA won some of these trades but
massive is not the right word for it. That word should be reserved for franchise altering trades.

Paul Quantrill was an All-Star once. The fact that League was too means nothing. The guy's still pretty much the same reliever he always was and this team was able to get a good #2/#3 starter out of him for multiple seasons now. The Cardinals have no regrets on the Rasmus trade, I'm sure, but that doesn't mean the Jays still didn't win it. They gave up essentially nothing to get him.

Yes RA Dickey won the NL CY Young last year that doesnt change the fact that he was 38 has a lack
of a track record played in a different league and was considered to be a fluke/feel good story by many.
If he was 30 and had a few dominant seasons under his belt people would have been able to stomach it
better.

You're aware that Dickey's not a regular 38 year old pitcher in decline, right? He's a knuckleballer that has only gotten better the last three seasons as he's aged and got a better grasp of that pitch. And as for a lack of track record, his good-to-great 2010-2012 seasons would suggest differently.

As for the Halladay trade I will give AA some leeway because he walked into a situation where he
wanted out and that diminished his value and we dont know what the other offers were. TDA and
Gose might even be good players. I would have still liked to seen us get 1 proven MLB player out
of the deal.

The Jays were looking for prospects (as they were rebuilding and didn't want to add any salary) and the Phillies didn't want to give up any significant MLB pieces (as they were trying to contend with that team). The deal as constructed was a fine deal for both considering their situations.

We should also mention the big trade for Justin Upton December 2011 that AA didnt pull
the trigger on.

We shouldn't because that isn't actually a trade, nor do we have any real knowledge about what/who would have been involved in such a deal.

[Waylon Mercy]

Overall I think AA has done a great job but I feel like you're not giving enough attention to some of the failed trades, especially the apologist tone in the Napoli for Francisco deal. "it can be argued that considering the Jays had no intention of contending in 2011, they were better off with the draft pick". That's BS and you know it, we would have been far better off keeping Napoli and his 5.3 WAR (or else why was the Escobar trade a positive since we didn't need his 6 WAR?). Or since we were out of contention, could have traded him for a better prospect than a comp pick and saved the $4M that we spent on a relief pitcher "in a year where we had no intention of contending".

I hated the Napoli for Francisco deal from the day it was made. I even spent much time arguing how bad it was with nearly anybody I could find (including Mike Wilner who, of course, ludicrously tried to suggest Lind was a better player than Napoli so we didn't need him). It wasn't good and made as much sense to me then as it does now (which isn't much). So don't paint me as an apologist just because I suggested there was an actual rationale behind it. It was one I certainly didn't agree with, but it's there.

Only reason Gose has more value than Wallace or Taylor is because he's 5 years younger and hasn't had as much time to fail, yet. He's certainly not a sure bet to have a real MLB career. But sure... at this point I'd rather have the 22 year old prospect than the 27 year old failed prospect.

If Emilio Bonifacio can have a 5+ year MLB career with nothing more for baseball skills than speed, Anthony Gose can too. And Gose actually plays elite defense in CF instead of awful defense at nearly every position there is, so some team should be able to find some use for him even if he can never hit much of anything.

The Jays seemingly made the right call on both Taylor and Wallace. The only thing left to see is whether they made the right call on Gose, too.

Hill for KJ turned out to be an enormous loss. The D'Backs have already got 7+ WAR from Hill in less than 2 seasons and we could have had him until the end of this season with the club options he had remaining, or declined the options and re-signed him even cheaper, as Arizona did. You claimed this one as a loss but we're not talking a binary win/loss here, we're talking about magnitude, and this one was much bigger than you make it out to be, especially considering the garbage that we started the season with at 2B.

I agree. It would have been great to have that Aaron Hill in Toronto (though I think his change of scenery to Arizona played no small part in his resurgence). But if you're going to talk about magnitude with the negatives, you can easily do it with plenty of positives (which I didn't, despite there being some massive wins in these trades). I just stuck with straight wins and losses to not complicate things.

We also spent $7.5M on Rajai Davis who has contributed 0.1 WAR in 3 seasons. Not so sure that's a win, as spending $100K or whatever Magnuson and Farquhar would have cost us over that span, might have been more cost effective in the long run.

This is a look at the trades themselves, not necessarily the contracts. Rajai was also over-used the past two seasons in my mind and it damaged his potential value to this team.

But again... overall, I think AA has done a good job with the roster and has basically had an epic string of bad luck this season. I also don't claim to know what makes a good group of coaches, but if we're to believe that hitting coaches and pitching coaches, and managers and everything have a tangible effect on the team, then maybe having a bunch of inexperienced guys wasn't the best idea. In this sense I have real questions about his choices for the coaching staff, but admittedly have no actual idea how effective each of Gibbons/Mottola/Walker/etc have been.

I can't speak to any of this. But if he got experienced coaches, I suspect people would probably be blaming them all the same for the struggles and calling them ineffective retreads. In the end, the responsibility comes down to the players actually playing the game.

If the Jays hired an experienced proven coach like Joe Torre I doubt anyone would question him.
People question Gibbons and his awful staff because they are unproven and have failed in the
past which led to skepticism.

People dont understand how a coaches worth is what he gets out of his roster both in player
development and expected wins.

eg. 1 Cito turns a scrub journeyman like Bautista into one of the best players in baseball according
to Bautista himself. Cito has guys like John Buck and Alex Gonzalez have career years under him hell
Buck even made the All-Star team. Alomar the greatest 2nd baseman of all time says he was the best
coach he ever played for....

Ofcourse the cretens ignore all that and prefer to remember Cito that year for not playing their
overrated trash golden boy Travis Snider. Looks like Cito was right on that as well. Look at that
team on paper that was supposed to be rebuilding and look at this team on paper thats supposed to
be contending and tell me coaching doesnt make a difference.

eg 2. Randy Carlyle on the Leafs. How does a crappy team last year that was expected to be
one of the worst teams in the league and virtually have the same roster as the year before not
only make the playoffs but get the 5th seed w/o a healthy Lupul for most of the year? How does
Kadri who was poisoned by his old coach and most considered a dud become one of the better
young players in the league? Good expierenced coaching that has won a championship before.
Its also no surprise that Reimer and Phaneuf are back on track.

eg. 3 Lenny Wilkens. The Raps get swept by the Knicks the year prior lose a budding star in T-Mac for
nothing hire an expierenced winning coach with championship pedigree and he gets almost the entire
team to have a career year under him from VC, Davis, Mo Pete, Alvin, Keon, JYD etc not only do
they beat the Knicks they are one graduation away from the ECF.

The next year he loses his franchise player in the season gets his team to go on a massive winning
streak to make the playoffs and is a Childs brain fart away from beating the Pistons in a best of 5
series who would end up being champs 2 years later.

The next year the Raps set the record for most injuries in NBA history and he is scapegoated for it.
I then get to read and hear the media and cretens talk about how bad of a coach he is.


Cito, Carlyle and lenny are all examples of what good coaching is. Winning above expectations,
Winning with the loss of great players, going on key winning streaks and getting the most of role
players and even turning them into all-stars.

[Waylon Mercy]

But you did choose to ignore that League became an All-Star after the trade and the Rasmus trade
helped the Cardinals win the World Series. Im not denying that AA won some of these trades but
massive is not the right word for it. That word should be reserved for franchise altering trades.

Paul Quantrill was an All-Star once. The fact that League was too means nothing. The guy's still pretty much the same reliever he always was and this team was able to get a good #2/#3 starter out of him for multiple seasons now. The Cardinals have no regrets on the Rasmus trade, I'm sure, but that doesn't mean the Jays still didn't win it. They gave up essentially nothing to get him.

Yes RA Dickey won the NL CY Young last year that doesnt change the fact that he was 38 has a lack
of a track record played in a different league and was considered to be a fluke/feel good story by many.
If he was 30 and had a few dominant seasons under his belt people would have been able to stomach it
better.

You're aware that Dickey's not a regular 38 year old pitcher in decline, right? He's a knuckleballer that has only gotten better the last three seasons as he's aged and got a better grasp of that pitch. And as for a lack of track record, his good-to-great 2010-2012 seasons would suggest differently.

As for the Halladay trade I will give AA some leeway because he walked into a situation where he
wanted out and that diminished his value and we dont know what the other offers were. TDA and
Gose might even be good players. I would have still liked to seen us get 1 proven MLB player out
of the deal.

The Jays were looking for prospects (as they were rebuilding and didn't want to add any salary) and the Phillies didn't want to give up any significant MLB pieces (as they were trying to contend with that team). The deal as constructed was a fine deal for both considering their situations.

We should also mention the big trade for Justin Upton December 2011 that AA didnt pull
the trigger on.

We shouldn't because that isn't actually a trade, nor do we have any real knowledge about what/who would have been involved in such a deal.

Listen nobody hated Brandon League more than me but saying that being an All-Star means
nothing and claiming hes the same pitcher as with us when hes had better numbers and being
a semi decent closer is ridiclious.

Not only did the Cards win the World Series but Rzep has been a vital part of their bullpen.
Rasmus on the other hand has many fans clamouring for his departure.

With that said im not denying the logic of these trades but "massive" wins??? Seems more like
your junk for my junk trades.

How do you dispute Dickey has a lack of a track record and then cite hes only had 3 good years
when 2 of them were nothing special? There is a small data sample of Knuckleballers getting
better at an old age to take it for granted. He also has to be a stud in the AL East playing
constantly in hitters parks.

The Dbacks wanted Drabek, Snider, Cecil, Gose and someone else possibly TDA for Upton

[Skin Blues]

All Star means absolutely nothing. Make an argument based on his value on the field, not on being the the All Star representative from the worst team at the least valuable position. It's irrelevant.

As for Rzepczynski, he is a mediocre LOOGY and has no real value to a MLB team. The fact that he has produced negative WAR and hugely negative WPA with more meltdowns than shutdowns (that's pretty hard to do) in his time as a Cardinal speaks to that. He is not a vital part of anything.

As for Dickey, you make no valid arguments so there's really no substance to what you're saying. You can't say a pitcher "only" has three good years. That's more than enough time to establish a track record as a MLB starting pitcher. Those two years you describe as "nothing special" combined for the 8th lowest ERA in the league. And this is after discarding the most recent season which is not only the most statistically relevant, one which he happened to be the best pitcher in the league.

[KG1585]

Acquired Colby Rasmus and some scrubs for Jason Frasor, Zach Stewart, Marc Rzepcyznski, Octavio Dotel, and Corey Patterson (Win)
We traded a scrub OF, three relievers (including one that eventually came back to us in Frasor and another in Rzep who has been demoted to AAA for performance reasons) and a starting pitching prospect who has shown he can't hack it at the MLB level for our starting CF. Colby Rasmus may not have reached his full potential yet (and he may never), but it was well worth these guys to find out whether he could. And he's a far superior option to anybody else we could have been using at the position in the last two years. A definite win, though it could have looked even better had Colby broken out at some point.

The Jays also gave up Edwin Jackson in this trade, so at best I think this trade was even, would lean towards a loss though.

[Skin Blues]

Well, we sent Frasor and Stewart for Edwin Jackson and Mark Teahen. The trade seems better without including the part where we added $5.5M of dead weight to the roster. I think it was worth it for what Rasmus could have turned into, but it was purposely deceiving to leave that part out of the trade assessment.

[Michael Bradley]

We should also mention the big trade for Justin Upton December 2011 that AA didnt pull
the trigger on.

Upton has a no-trade clause and Toronto is one of the teams on his list. He was originally traded to the Mariners but vetoed the trade (Seattle was one of the teams on his list), so chances are he would have done the same if traded to the Blue Jays.

[Waylon Mercy]

All Star means absolutely nothing. Make an argument based on his value on the field, not on being the the All Star representative from the worst team at the least valuable position. It's irrelevant.

As for Rzepczynski, he is a mediocre LOOGY and has no real value to a MLB team. The fact that he has produced negative WAR and hugely negative WPA with more meltdowns than shutdowns (that's pretty hard to do) in his time as a Cardinal speaks to that. He is not a vital part of anything.

As for Dickey, you make no valid arguments so there's really no substance to what you're saying. You can't say a pitcher "only" has three good years. That's more than enough time to establish a track record as a MLB starting pitcher. Those two years you describe as "nothing special" combined for the 8th lowest ERA in the league. And this is after discarding the most recent season which is not only the most statistically relevant, one which he happened to be the best pitcher in the league.

lmao

"AA has done a great job" *other post in this thread*

"All-Star means absolutely nothing"

"As for Dickey, you make no valid arguments so there's really no substance to what you're saying"

Some sig worthy gold there luckily I don't do sigs so don't worry.

Funny thing is I hate Brandon League but dismissing his All-Star appearence and refusing to
acknowledge he has been a better pitcher since he left as a Blue Jay is ridiclious. If me his
biggest hater can admit that I'm sure you can as well.

As for Rzep I was talking about his 2011 run with the Cards mainly in the playoffs and World Series.
Like I described in that post it was a my junk for your junk trade. Im sure someone could even
suggest it was addition by subtraction for the Cards dumping Rasmus on us. The Cards don't miss
him and a lot of Jays fans want him gone but in BlueJays land this was a "massive" win for us.

My arguments damn sure have substance when talking about Dickey hence the reason why 80%
of the fans on here hated the idea of trading for him when it was rumored and tons of fans
in the league of other teams thought it was a bad trade for us. I never discarded Dickeys last
season but I wasn't a damn fool to think that he would repeat that again and be the norm for
him going forward. His 4.50 era and 1.30 whip is no surprise to many of us. Welcome to the American
League Dickey you know the league you struggled in badly the last time you were here.

You AA lovers get so mad at us non believers we give you the reasoning of why the moves will be
bad or lateral and its always dismissed as us talking out of our asses. Then when these moves fail
or have no barring on our overall record the facts and reasoning make no sense or however
you want to spin it. Sorry I call it the way it is I'm not good at justifying or spinning failure.

[Waylon Mercy]

We should also mention the big trade for Justin Upton December 2011 that AA didnt pull
the trigger on.

Upton has a no-trade clause and Toronto is one of the teams on his list. He was originally traded to the Mariners but vetoed the trade (Seattle was one of the teams on his list), so chances are he would have done the same if traded to the Blue Jays.

I heard he was open to coming to Toronto if traded here think he liked the city or something
along those lines. The Upton info I know from a friend who is well connected with the Jays.

[Skin Blues]

All Star means absolutely nothing. Make an argument based on his value on the field, not on being the the All Star representative from the worst team at the least valuable position. It's irrelevant.

As for Rzepczynski, he is a mediocre LOOGY and has no real value to a MLB team. The fact that he has produced negative WAR and hugely negative WPA with more meltdowns than shutdowns (that's pretty hard to do) in his time as a Cardinal speaks to that. He is not a vital part of anything.

As for Dickey, you make no valid arguments so there's really no substance to what you're saying. You can't say a pitcher "only" has three good years. That's more than enough time to establish a track record as a MLB starting pitcher. Those two years you describe as "nothing special" combined for the 8th lowest ERA in the league. And this is after discarding the most recent season which is not only the most statistically relevant, one which he happened to be the best pitcher in the league.

lmao

"AA has done a great job" *other post in this thread*

"All-Star means absolutely nothing"

"As for Dickey, you make no valid arguments so there's really no substance to what you're saying"

Some sig worthy gold there luckily I don't do sigs so don't worry.

Funny thing is I hate Brandon League but dismissing his All-Star appearence and refusing to
acknowledge he has been a better pitcher since he left as a Blue Jay is ridiclious. If me his
biggest hater can admit that I'm sure you can as well.

As for Rzep I was talking about his 2011 run with the Cards mainly in the playoffs and World Series.
Like I described in that post it was a my junk for your junk trade. Im sure someone could even
suggest it was addition by subtraction for the Cards dumping Rasmus on us. The Cards don't miss
him and a lot of Jays fans want him gone but in BlueJays land this was a "massive" win for us.

My arguments damn sure have substance when talking about Dickey hence the reason why 80%
of the fans on here hated the idea of trading for him when it was rumored and tons of fans
in the league of other teams thought it was a bad trade for us. I never discarded Dickeys last
season but I wasn't a damn fool to think that he would repeat that again and be the norm for
him going forward. His 4.50 era and 1.30 whip is no surprise to many of us. Welcome to the American
League Dickey you know the league you struggled in badly the last time you were here.

You AA lovers get so mad at us non believers we give you the reasoning of why the moves will be
bad or lateral and its always dismissed as us talking out of our asses. Then when these moves fail
or have no barring on our overall record the facts and reasoning make no sense or however
you want to spin it. Sorry I call it the way it is I'm not good at justifying or spinning failure.

I wouldn't mind for a second having you publicly display how wrong you think I am, hahaha. I can't imagine a better endorsement for myself. Kind of like how Obama was happy to have Donald Trump aligning himself with Mitt Romney last fall.