Failure to grab at least one of Chapman/Darvish/Cespedes

[Kapono]

Boy, it sure would be nice to have at least one of these guys now. Chapman is arguably the best RP in the game while Darvish is one of the best SP. Cespedes is having a down year but he should pick it up soon.

Anyways, it was well publicized just how interested the Jays were in Chapman and Darvish. Jays were in there till the end in both conversations yet they finished 2nd in both sweepstakes because of not wanting to offer more money.

There were rumblings of the Jays being interested in Cespedes as well ( http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=379903 ), although nothing to the level of their interest in Darvish and Chapman.

These three players were all considered guys who could step in the major leagues right away and would only cost money (no prospects or other trade pieces)

Thoughts?

Any idea why AA choose to not up their offers for any of the three players?>

[tecumseh18]

AA gave a good try for Chapman. I can't blame him for that.

Not getting Darvish was very disappointing after all the chatter. But the money commitment was admittedly huge. I can't really blame AA for thinking he could get more reward for dollars risked elsewhere, but it was a bad decision - baseball wise and business wise. Forget the Japanese TV market, can you imagine the increased attendance from having a guy like that every fifth day?

Cespedes was not a position of need (at the time). But we were well along in the process of deepening our commitment to Latin American players, and should have been in on him, no question. The dollars weren't prohibitive.

But for Chapman and Darvish's sake, I'm sorta glad they didn't end here. I'd rather watch them win for their teams and help MLB generally then be just another couple of injured Blue Jay pitchers. How much confidence do you have that such would not be the case?

[Kapono]

AA gave a good try for Chapman. I can't blame him for that.

Not getting Darvish was very disappointing after all the chatter. But the money commitment was admittedly huge. I can't really blame AA for thinking he could get more reward for dollars risked elsewhere, but it was a bad decision - baseball wise and business wise. Forget the Japanese TV market, can you imagine the increased attendance from having a guy like that every fifth day?

Cespedes was not a position of need (at the time). But we were well along in the process of deepening our commitment to Latin American players, and should have been in on him, no question. The dollars weren't prohibitive.

But for Chapman and Darvish's sake, I'm sorta glad they didn't end here. I'd rather watch them win for their teams and help MLB generally then be just another couple of injured Blue Jay pitchers. How much confidence do you have that such would not be the case?

The Darvish fiasco was such a tease. I remember someone leaked that the Jays won the bid and Jays fans on forums/twitter/in real life were rejoicing. Only for us to find out that Texas won the bid and that the Jays werent even close.

[Randle McMurphy]

What is there to say really other than it's too bad we didn't get one of the three?

[Lateral Quicks]

I've grown increasingly critical of AA over the last year and a half, but not over missing out on these guys. They were relative unknowns, but unlike prospects, they cost a lot of money. They weren't worth the risk. The only thing that irked me about the Darvish affair was all the hype that the front office let build up about the Jays being the leaders. That was really poor PR.

[Kurtz]

Don't mind Cespedes, as we had reasonable options in the OF.
Don't mind Chapman, because we did make a reasonable offer for a guy who seemed like he was destined for relief.
But Darvish was inexcusable. We had a need. The whole city wanted him, down to the casual fans (I'd seen people at my office who were barely baseball fans watching Japanese clips of him). And AA and co travelled to Japan to watch him pitch, and clearly didn't see enough potential.

I'd say that that sort of gross incompetence should be enough to fire someone, but I'm hanging on to the hope that it was simply Rogers being cheap.

ps: Not to mention that if we got Darvish, we wouldn't do the Dickey deal, and we'd be far far better positioned for the future.

[galacticos2]

It's really easy to blame AA for not pushing hard for these guys when they are doing so well. Why didn't the Yankees, Dodgers or Red Sox push for these guys then? Oakland and Cinci? They took the risk. I am not mad AA didn't go for these guys, because they would be overpaid and haven't proved anything yet. Just look at Hech, he's doing brutal out there. AA's failure was to pick up quality pieces around the big leagues.

The catching position needs to be addressed at the deadline or offseason, JP is not cutting it. After being benched in favour of Blanco in that Buerhle start earlier, he was furious. Why couldn't he respect the managers decision? He seems to cocky to me along with Lawrie. I want these guys both out. They are fan favourites to the fair weather fans but they need to be dumped ASAP.

[Kapono]

It's really easy to blame AA for not pushing hard for these guys when they are doing so well. Why didn't the Yankees, Dodgers or Red Sox push for these guys then? Oakland and Cinci? They took the risk. I am not mad AA didn't go for these guys, because they would be overpaid and haven't proved anything yet. Just look at Hech, he's doing brutal out there. AA's failure was to pick up quality pieces around the big leagues.

The catching position needs to be addressed at the deadline or offseason, JP is not cutting it. After being benched in favour of Blanco in that Buerhle start earlier, he was furious. Why couldn't he respect the managers decision? He seems to cocky to me along with Lawrie. I want these guys both out. They are fan favourites to the fair weather fans but they need to be dumped ASAP.

The difference is the Jays finished 2nd in both sweepstakes. So they were interested in Darvish and Chapman from the get go to the end.

[galacticos2]

Can I have a link to say that they finished 2nd to Darvish and Chapman? I remember they were mum on the Darvish details.

[Duffman100]

Can I have a link to say that they finished 2nd to Darvish and Chapman? I remember they were mum on the Darvish details.

Yeah, I was under the impression that we were much farther down the list. Our bid was considerably lower than several others.

[Skin Blues]

It's really easy to blame AA for not pushing hard for these guys when they are doing so well. Why didn't the Yankees, Dodgers or Red Sox push for these guys then? Oakland and Cinci? They took the risk. I am not mad AA didn't go for these guys, because they would be overpaid and haven't proved anything yet. Just look at Hech, he's doing brutal out there. AA's failure was to pick up quality pieces around the big leagues.

The catching position needs to be addressed at the deadline or offseason, JP is not cutting it. After being benched in favour of Blanco in that Buerhle start earlier, he was furious. Why couldn't he respect the managers decision? He seems to cocky to me along with Lawrie. I want these guys both out. They are fan favourites to the fair weather fans but they need to be dumped ASAP.

The difference is the Jays finished 2nd in both sweepstakes. So they were interested in Darvish and Chapman from the get go to the end.

There's no way to know what the Jays bid for Darvish, or what any other team bid, so this is a ridiculous claim. I wanted Darvish as much as anybody else but we don't even know if AA made a competitive offer. I think it was a good risk, but keep in mind that 29 other MLB teams didn't win the bid either and they were privy to at least as much information as all of us couch managers.

I don't remember the Chapman business and whether or not we know for sure what the Jays bid, but so far he's cost the Reds just about what he's been worth. Of course, that's mostly their fault for using him as a reliever instead of a starter, because he could have been worth a lot more. But still; $25M for 3 years (which is the effective contract; he'll have 3 years of service time and be arb eligible after this season which makes the $3M a bonus, and he will decline the $5M option for 2015) is a lot of cash for a reliever. He basically had to be the best and healthiest reliever in the world to make that financially viable, which he has done, and that's quite a risk to take. They might have some cost savings in his three arbitration years, but I'm guessing those three years will cost > $30M (based on Papelbon's precedent) and I just don't see any way that he will be worth that much unless they give Dusty the boot and make Chapman a starter.

[UN-Owen]

It's really easy to blame AA for not pushing hard for these guys when they are doing so well. Why didn't the Yankees, Dodgers or Red Sox push for these guys then? Oakland and Cinci? They took the risk. I am not mad AA didn't go for these guys, because they would be overpaid and haven't proved anything yet. Just look at Hech, he's doing brutal out there. AA's failure was to pick up quality pieces around the big leagues.

The catching position needs to be addressed at the deadline or offseason, JP is not cutting it. After being benched in favour of Blanco in that Buerhle start earlier, he was furious. Why couldn't he respect the managers decision? He seems to cocky to me along with Lawrie. I want these guys both out. They are fan favourites to the fair weather fans but they need to be dumped ASAP.

The difference is the Jays finished 2nd in both sweepstakes. So they were interested in Darvish and Chapman from the get go to the end.

There's no way to know what the Jays bid for Darvish, or what any other team bid, so this is a ridiculous claim. I wanted Darvish as much as anybody else but we don't even know if AA made a competitive offer. I think it was a good risk, but keep in mind that 29 other MLB teams didn't win the bid either and they were privy to at least as much information as all of us couch managers.

I don't remember the Chapman business and whether or not we know for sure what the Jays bid, but so far he's cost the Reds just about what he's been worth. Of course, that's mostly their fault for using him as a reliever instead of a starter, because he could have been worth a lot more. But still; $25M for 3 years (which is the effective contract; he'll have 3 years of service time and be arb eligible after this season which makes the $3M a bonus, and he will decline the $5M option for 2015) is a lot of cash for a reliever. He basically had to be the best and healthiest reliever in the world to make that financially viable, which he has done, and that's quite a risk to take. They might have some cost savings in his three arbitration years, but I'm guessing those three years will cost > $30M (based on Papelbon's precedent) and I just don't see any way that he will be worth that much unless they give Dusty the boot and make Chapman a starter.

Chapman wants to close

Also, it's not your money, right? We should want our organization to spend top dollar on top players

[UN-Owen]

The one thing that always puzzled me about AA's strategy of building a winner was that he was hesitant to become a major player in free-agency and would prefer to trade assets for controllable players

I would have rather he held onto the prized prospects and simply signed available talents when they became available

[Santoki]

The one thing that always puzzled me about AA's strategy of building a winner was that he was hesitant to become a major player in free-agency and would prefer to trade assets for controllable players

I would have rather he held onto the prized prospects and simply signed available talents when they became available

It's probably more a mandate from ownership than his personal philosophies, but he's become a bit too infatuated with the phrase "young and controllable".

[galacticos2]

The one thing that always puzzled me about AA's strategy of building a winner was that he was hesitant to become a major player in free-agency and would prefer to trade assets for controllable players

I would have rather he held onto the prized prospects and simply signed available talents when they became available

It's probably more a mandate from ownership than his personal philosophies, but he's become a bit too infatuated with the phrase "young and controllable".

I think its really, really hard to persuade players to come to Toronto as free agents. Obviously if we trade for them such as Reyes and Buerhle they need to play for as. Dickey is an exception because it was a trade then a extension and for a 38 year pitcher being offered that much money based on a CY Young year would take anytime.

AA and Rogers won't admit it but people don't want to come play here. Its a hassle dealing with borders/passports etc. Some players can tolerate it and don't mind, but others just would want to avoid at all costs.

[UN-Owen]

The one thing that always puzzled me about AA's strategy of building a winner was that he was hesitant to become a major player in free-agency and would prefer to trade assets for controllable players

I would have rather he held onto the prized prospects and simply signed available talents when they became available

It's probably more a mandate from ownership than his personal philosophies, but he's become a bit too infatuated with the phrase "young and controllable".

I think its really, really hard to persuade players to come to Toronto as free agents. Obviously if we trade for them such as Reyes and Buerhle they need to play for as. Dickey is an exception because it was a trade then a extension and for a 38 year pitcher being offered that much money based on a CY Young year would take anytime.

AA and Rogers won't admit it but people don't want to come play here. Its a hassle dealing with borders/passports etc. Some players can tolerate it and don't mind, but others just would want to avoid at all costs.

Roger Clemens
Dave Winfield
Paul Molitor
Dave Stewart
Jack Morris
Randy Myers

Put a winning product on the field and big name free-agents have no problem choosing Toronto

[galacticos2]

Sorry, meant to say its hard to attract free agents initially. If we didn't make that trade with the Marlins, theres no way Dickey would extend with us. Obviously winning will trump all those misconceptions about playing here, no doubt about it.

[Santoki]

The one thing that always puzzled me about AA's strategy of building a winner was that he was hesitant to become a major player in free-agency and would prefer to trade assets for controllable players

I would have rather he held onto the prized prospects and simply signed available talents when they became available

It's probably more a mandate from ownership than his personal philosophies, but he's become a bit too infatuated with the phrase "young and controllable".

I think its really, really hard to persuade players to come to Toronto as free agents. Obviously if we trade for them such as Reyes and Buerhle they need to play for as. Dickey is an exception because it was a trade then a extension and for a 38 year pitcher being offered that much money based on a CY Young year would take anytime.

AA and Rogers won't admit it but people don't want to come play here. Its a hassle dealing with borders/passports etc. Some players can tolerate it and don't mind, but others just would want to avoid at all costs.

I really don't feel like going through all of this again (because you sound like a Raptors fan first), but the Jays back in the early 90s were THE team to play for. It's amazing what winning will do to an organization, and when this club finally does start winning again, I'm pretty sure players won't avoid it because they have to get a work visa.

[UN-Owen]

Failure to land Domonic Brown in the Halladay trade needs an honourable mention

[Ado05]

Yeah it sucks that he couldnt pick any of these guys up.

Chapman stings, especially since it seemed like we were putting in a strong effort to get him. Wouldve been really nice to have him at the closer spot with Jannsen infront of him. Thats a killer combo.

Cespedes doesnt sting at all, tbh. He is more of a long term option, and we had Gose, Rasmus and Bautista, who all seem to be the long term OF's, granted Bau Bau might move to DH as he gets older, Gose has yet to really prove anything in the MLB and Rasmus doesnt seem like he can hit to well. He has his moments, but he has got to get it going consistently.

Darvish stings like a b*tch though. We needed some starting pitching at the time (and we still need some now, lol), and Darvish was legit in Japan, and although there is a risk, and a big one, I wouldve taken it. And also, AA didnt know how much other teams were bidding. Im sure Texas was a little pissed when they found out that no team was really close to paying as much as they did, but their probably extremely happy to trade 100+ million for the production Darvish provides. Plus Darvish and Kawasaki couldve been best friends!

So although it sucks we didnt get any of those guys, there were big risks surronding them all, and I guess AA and ownership werent willing to take that risk.