Farrell takes shot at Jays pitching development strategy

[dagger]

Or should we say, the Jays lack of a pitcher development strategy. (BTW, I'm not actually sure he's wrong on this. The Jays have a great scouting system, probably one of the best evaluating teams around, but do they know how to develop all the toolsy guys they draft).

Sox manager John Farrell took questions from an audience at a seminar this week, including one about the difference between the Blue Jays and Red Sox: specifically, whether Farrell had noticed a difference in how the organizations develop pitchers.

The big trades weren't a part of the question, but the answer provided big-picture relevance.

"We can have a seminar on this question — not just because it's Toronto and Boston," Farrell said. "There are very distinct differences and it starts, I think it starts, at the top. And the reason I say that: I found Toronto to be a scouting-based organization, which to me is on one plane, one-dimensional. You're looking at tools. Here, it's a player-development based system. It's the paths of the individuals that are running the organization. And that's not to be critical.

"We all know that there's three different veins in this game that people advance (through): baseball operations, scouting, player development. Well, in the player-development vein, you're going to look at things in three dimensions: mentally, physically, fundamentally to address and develop people, or develop an organization. I think as a scouting base, you go out and you evaluate the physical tools. And that's kind of where it ends, or that's the look at that time. That was my experience, that was my opinion."

[Avenger]

Or should we say, the Jays lack of a pitcher development strategy. (BTW, I'm not actually sure he's wrong on this. The Jays have a great scouting system, probably one of the best evaluating teams around, but do they know how to develop all the toolsy guys they draft).

Sox manager John Farrell took questions from an audience at a seminar this week, including one about the difference between the Blue Jays and Red Sox: specifically, whether Farrell had noticed a difference in how the organizations develop pitchers.

The big trades weren't a part of the question, but the answer provided big-picture relevance.

"We can have a seminar on this question — not just because it's Toronto and Boston," Farrell said. "There are very distinct differences and it starts, I think it starts, at the top. And the reason I say that: I found Toronto to be a scouting-based organization, which to me is on one plane, one-dimensional. You're looking at tools. Here, it's a player-development based system. It's the paths of the individuals that are running the organization. And that's not to be critical.

"We all know that there's three different veins in this game that people advance (through): baseball operations, scouting, player development. Well, in the player-development vein, you're going to look at things in three dimensions: mentally, physically, fundamentally to address and develop people, or develop an organization. I think as a scouting base, you go out and you evaluate the physical tools. And that's kind of where it ends, or that's the look at that time. That was my experience, that was my opinion."

Is that right? and what proof do you have to back this up? Do you have study that says some teams are better at "player development" than others? Do you consider the Rays a good player development team? If so how is it that they have failed so badly at drafting and developing players in the last ~5 years?

[dagger]

Or should we say, the Jays lack of a pitcher development strategy. (BTW, I'm not actually sure he's wrong on this. The Jays have a great scouting system, probably one of the best evaluating teams around, but do they know how to develop all the toolsy guys they draft).

Sox manager John Farrell took questions from an audience at a seminar this week, including one about the difference between the Blue Jays and Red Sox: specifically, whether Farrell had noticed a difference in how the organizations develop pitchers.

The big trades weren't a part of the question, but the answer provided big-picture relevance.

"We can have a seminar on this question — not just because it's Toronto and Boston," Farrell said. "There are very distinct differences and it starts, I think it starts, at the top. And the reason I say that: I found Toronto to be a scouting-based organization, which to me is on one plane, one-dimensional. You're looking at tools. Here, it's a player-development based system. It's the paths of the individuals that are running the organization. And that's not to be critical.

"We all know that there's three different veins in this game that people advance (through): baseball operations, scouting, player development. Well, in the player-development vein, you're going to look at things in three dimensions: mentally, physically, fundamentally to address and develop people, or develop an organization. I think as a scouting base, you go out and you evaluate the physical tools. And that's kind of where it ends, or that's the look at that time. That was my experience, that was my opinion."

Is that right? and what proof do you have to back this up? Do you have study that says some teams are better at "player development" than others? Do you consider the Rays a good player development team? If so how is it that they have failed so badly at drafting and developing players in the last ~5 years?

So how many have we brought to the majors in the past five years that aren't on rehab for TJ surgery now? Maybe, just maybe, there should be more questioning of this organization. Do you think we are just serially unlucky? Maybe we rush pitchers without having them build sufficient minor league innings. And the Rays have done very well developing players. Farrell's point wasn't about drafting. He wasn't suggesting the Jays can't locate talent, or do you have a reading deficiency.

[Schad]

So how many have we brought to the majors in the past five years that aren't on rehab for TJ surgery now? Maybe, just maybe, there should be more questioning of this organization. Do you think we are just serially unlucky? Maybe we rush pitchers without having them build sufficient minor league innings. And the Rays have done very well developing players. Farrell's point wasn't about drafting. He wasn't suggesting the Jays can't locate talent, or do you have a reading deficiency.

As opposed to the Red Sox, who have done a fantastic job of turning drafted players into major league regulars over the past five seasons.

Oh, wait, they haven't at all. The best bWAR for a Red Sox player drafted since 2007 is Anthony Rizzo's 3.9. He was traded before making the majors, in the Adrian Gonzalez deal. Second-best is Stephen Fife, traded to the Dodgers, at 1.8. Brandon Workman's 0.2 bWAR tops the list among players drafted from 2009 on.

Put another way: Aaron Loup has recorded more bWAR for the Jays than the combined total of every Red Sox draftee from 2007 on has recorded in a Boston jersey.

[dagger]

I wouldn't bet on that being the case much longer.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/ ... story.html

Then there is Jackie Bradley.

[Avenger]

So how many have we brought to the majors in the past five years that aren't on rehab for TJ surgery now? Maybe, just maybe, there should be more questioning of this organization. Do you think we are just serially unlucky? Maybe we rush pitchers without having them build sufficient minor league innings. And the Rays have done very well developing players. Farrell's point wasn't about drafting. He wasn't suggesting the Jays can't locate talent, or do you have a reading deficiency.

The Rays have done well developing players huh? Name me one in house draftee in the past 5 years that they turned into a major leaguer or even a high ranked prospect, they drafted plenty of first rounders that had talent, why did the Rays fail at "player development"?

[C Court]

Seemingly every year, the Jays are beset by an above average number of injuries. Seemingly every year, the Jays play ball in a manner that is not fundamentally sound. In two of the past three years, the Jays have not been able to sign their top draft pick - which negatively impacts the potential high end young talent in the Jays pipeline.

These are all issues that are a concern and its why I am not convinced that AA will lead the Jays to the promised land. I certainly hope Beeston takes a good hard look at why the Jays have seemingly made no progress in the past four seasons.

[Fairview4Life]

If you want the Jays to reduce their injuries, they should probably stop playing on concrete for half the season. I'm not sure what that has to do with Farrell's player development nonsense.

They also haven't made any progress in 4 years because they have only been trying to make progress for one year. I'm sure Beeston's aware of why the team has sucked this season.

[Schad]

I wouldn't bet on that being the case much longer.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/ ... story.html

Then there is Jackie Bradley.

Bogaerts -- who you didn't appear to have heard of in May -- is fantastic. He still doesn't add up to proof of a superior development strategy. And definitely doesn't speak to superior pitching development strategy, either.

And Bradley's a very good prospect. Until he hits in the bigs, though, he too isn't proof of much, and the reviews from Red Sox fans in April were less than kind.

[Avenger]

If you want the Jays to reduce their injuries, they should probably stop playing on concrete for half the season. I'm not sure what that has to do with Farrell's player development nonsense.

They also haven't made any progress in 4 years because they have only been trying to make progress for one year. I'm sure Beeston's aware of why the team has sucked this season.

There's no consistent evidence to suggest playing on turf leads to more injuries. Infact some studies suggest the opposite
Like this metanalysis that looked at injuries in Soccer actually suggested that turf might be safer than natural grass
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jsm/2013/380523/
and this analysis of football injuries among college players
http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/38/4/687.abstract

[Fairview4Life]

If you want the Jays to reduce their injuries, they should probably stop playing on concrete for half the season. I'm not sure what that has to do with Farrell's player development nonsense.

They also haven't made any progress in 4 years because they have only been trying to make progress for one year. I'm sure Beeston's aware of why the team has sucked this season.

There's no evidence to suggest playing on turf leads to more injuries. Infact the evidence suggests the opposite

Like this metanalysis that looked at injuries in Soccer actually suggested that turf might be safer than natural grass
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jsm/2013/380523/
and this analysis of football injuries
http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/38/4/687.abstract

Isn't the Skydome unique in its painted concrete style turf?

[dagger]

Or should we say, the Jays lack of a pitcher development strategy. (BTW, I'm not actually sure he's wrong on this. The Jays have a great scouting system, probably one of the best evaluating teams around, but do they know how to develop all the toolsy guys they draft).

Sox manager John Farrell took questions from an audience at a seminar this week, including one about the difference between the Blue Jays and Red Sox: specifically, whether Farrell had noticed a difference in how the organizations develop pitchers.

The big trades weren't a part of the question, but the answer provided big-picture relevance.

"We can have a seminar on this question — not just because it's Toronto and Boston," Farrell said. "There are very distinct differences and it starts, I think it starts, at the top. And the reason I say that: I found Toronto to be a scouting-based organization, which to me is on one plane, one-dimensional. You're looking at tools. Here, it's a player-development based system. It's the paths of the individuals that are running the organization. And that's not to be critical.

"We all know that there's three different veins in this game that people advance (through): baseball operations, scouting, player development. Well, in the player-development vein, you're going to look at things in three dimensions: mentally, physically, fundamentally to address and develop people, or develop an organization. I think as a scouting base, you go out and you evaluate the physical tools. And that's kind of where it ends, or that's the look at that time. That was my experience, that was my opinion."

Is that right? and what proof do you have to back this up? Do you have study that says some teams are better at "player development" than others? Do you consider the Rays a good player development team? If so how is it that they have failed so badly at drafting and developing players in the last ~5 years?

Hellickson, Moore, Price, Shields, Longoria, Jennings - Oh, I see, you said five years so as to cut some of these guys off the list.

[Graham's Cracker]

Historically the Red Sox have drafted some tough signs and typically had a bigger draft budget as well. I think they put quite an emphasis on the scouting and drafting themselves. I'm pretty sure the only teams that spend more on avg. over the past 5-6 years have been the Nationals, Royals and likely the Pirates. This is not surprising given where they normally draft as compared to where the Sox have chosen.

That being said I think the Jays do need to evaluate their development and question why so many pitchers are getting injured. However, it seems to be a widespread epidemic.

[-MetA4-]

Hellickson, Moore, Price, Shields, Longoria, Jennings - Oh, I see, you said five years so as to cut some of these guys off the list.

The time frame matters. If the Rays are so much better than everyone else; then what happened these past 5 years? 5 years is a pretty significant amount of time...especially for a team that is supposedly 'so good' at player development.

BTW: Price and Longoria were #1 and #3 overall picks. Both developed college players. Are you seriously using those as examples of extraordinary player development?

[Fairview4Life]

Hellickson, Moore, Price, Shields, Longoria, Jennings - Oh, I see, you said five years so as to cut some of these guys off the list.

The time frame matters. If the Rays are so much better than everyone else; then what happened these past 5 years? 5 years is a pretty significant amount of time...especially for a team that is supposedly 'so good' at player development.

BTW: Price and Longoria were #1 and #3 overall picks. Both developed college players. Are you seriously using those as examples of extraordinary player development?

Yeah that's a little weird. The Rays were great at developing guys they picked really high in the draft, but stopped being good at developing guys when they started winning a lot.

[C Court]

They also haven't made any progress in 4 years because they have only been trying to make progress for one year. I'm sure Beeston's aware of why the team has sucked this season.

Not true. Since the day Alex arrived, he has been taking steps to make the Jays better. No one expected the Jays to turn it around overnight. But we expected to see some level of improvement after 3 or 4 years. Failing that, the expectation was that the Jays would have a solid nucleus in the farm system.

Yet here we are, with a poor on field record and a farm system which is not likely to turn around the Jays fortunes in the foreseeable future.

The question is, how much better is the organization as a whole in 2013, compared to four years ago? That's what Beeston needs to focus on.

[s e n s i]

I certainly hope Beeston takes a good hard look at why the Jays have seemingly made no progress in the past four seasons.

perhaps that good hard look should take place in front of his bathroom vanity. he's the one who handpicked the GM isn't he? maybe if beeston chose someone else to lead in making the personnel decisions back in 2009 instead of AA then maybe we wouldn't be perennial division losers. just an idea though

[C Court]

Can't argue with that. Alex was Beeston's guy.

[dagger]

I'm not on the fire-AA bandwagon, likely won't be any time soon. He was an inexperienced hire as GM, and he's made a lot of mistakes that he hopefully learned from.

1. Don't go all-in on talent but not the manager.
2. Don't draft low-signability players in the first round, at least don't make a habit of it.
3. With veterans, a declining year over year performance should be taken as a trend not to be ignored.
4. Don't give mediocre backup-calibre infielders three year guaranteed contracts
5. A 38 year old knuckleballer is a 38 year old pitcher. Melky Cabrera will never hit .345 again, not even taking a bathtub full of pills.
6. Don't rush young pitchers, or Ricky Romero, up from the minors. Ever.
7. There are shortcuts to success, but don't play all your good cards to take one.

Hopefully, AA will be a better GM in the future. I'd like to benefit from the experience he has acquired making a few mistakes.

[C Court]

I hope AA can turn the Jays around. My biggest problem is that some fans make him out to be a near perfect GM. He's not. Right now, he still has a lot to learn.