RealGM

Batting .194/.231/.222/.453 in 36 AB's and 9 games since the trade and his overall numbers have fallen to .274/.311/.366/.677 (it was around .700 at the time of the deal).

It looks like we got out at the right time. Col is going to find it extremely hard to move that contract during the waiver deadline and may find it impossible to move in the offseason if Reyes continues to slump.

They didn't want Reyes; taking him as a salary makeweight was a necessary evil to get Hoffman and Castro. Being able to shift part/all of his salary later would just be a bonus.

Yeah, it was the prospects that were of value to them. I do think that Reyes will rebound to an extent offensively but the guy is done as a useful SS.

Yeah I think when AA wanted Tulo it was only natural Reyes was in there as the numbers factor for a Tulo for Hoffman/Castro trade.

They wanted Hoffman bad. Just from their GM's comments after the trade, they liked Hoffman from his college days. They had him ranked as the best talent in the draft. Plus Castro is another high ceiling prospect that AA offered. For a rebuilding club, that's a huge package.

They will need to do something about Reyes in the field soon though. They have 2 top SS prospects just about ready for the MLB. Im assuming they made the deal thinking they can flip Reyes for more prospects. Not gonna happen at this rate though.

Schad wrote:They didn't want Reyes; taking him as a salary makeweight was a necessary evil to get Hoffman and Castro. Being able to shift part/all of his salary later would just be a bonus.

Thats a whole lot of cheese for a makeweight;

8.28 Million this season (101 GP by tor at the time of the trade)
22 million next season
22 million in 2017
4 million buyout

That equals 56.28 million. Of course we have all read the Zip projections that indicate Reyes will be worth -20 million in his next two seasons plus 61 games but of course he could decline much worse then that. Colorado has really left themselves open by taking on a contract that becomes unmovable for example if he is no longer can play SS (who wants a LF who has a sub .700 OPS? A DH?).

How much is that player worth a season? 3-5 million tops? If thats the case he all of sudden becomes a -20 million player to -49 million dollar player. They've opened themselves up to a ton of negative outcomes with the trade.

is reyes' contract worse than vernon well's at the time of trade?

hyper316 wrote:is reyes' contract worse than vernon well's at the time of trade?

I don't think so because Vernon Wells was traded with 4 years at the time of his deal but Reyes has 2.4 years left.

spikeslovechild wrote:
Thats a whole lot of cheese for a makeweight;

8.28 Million this season (101 GP by tor at the time of the trade)
22 million next season
22 million in 2017
4 million buyout

That equals 56.28 million. Of course we have all read the Zip projections that indicate Reyes will be worth -20 million in his next two seasons plus 61 games but of course he could decline much worse then that. Colorado has really left themselves open by taking on a contract that becomes unmovable for example if he is no longer can play SS (who wants a LF who has a sub .700 OPS? A DH?).

How much is that player worth a season? 3-5 million tops? If thats the case he all of sudden becomes a -20 million player to -49 million dollar player. They've opened themselves up to a ton of negative outcomes with the trade.

It is a whole lot of cheese. But it's also an acceptable amount of cheese from their perspective, because they're still early in their teardown; the young pitching may start filtering up soon, but the biggest bats aren't going to hit the bigs until Reyes' contract is nearing/at its end. If they have to eat most of Reyes' deal, that's okay; it's going to be a while before they need that money.

North_of_Border wrote:They wanted Hoffman bad. Just from their GM's comments after the trade, they liked Hoffman from his college days. They had him ranked as the best talent in the draft.

I think they liked a Freeland just a little bit more.

Boy am I glad Hoffman slipped to us. #Tulo

Schad wrote:

spikeslovechild wrote:
Thats a whole lot of cheese for a makeweight;

8.28 Million this season (101 GP by tor at the time of the trade)
22 million next season
22 million in 2017
4 million buyout

That equals 56.28 million. Of course we have all read the Zip projections that indicate Reyes will be worth -20 million in his next two seasons plus 61 games but of course he could decline much worse then that. Colorado has really left themselves open by taking on a contract that becomes unmovable for example if he is no longer can play SS (who wants a LF who has a sub .700 OPS? A DH?).

How much is that player worth a season? 3-5 million tops? If thats the case he all of sudden becomes a -20 million player to -49 million dollar player. They've opened themselves up to a ton of negative outcomes with the trade.

It is a whole lot of cheese. But it's also an acceptable amount of cheese from their perspective, because they're still early in their teardown; the young pitching may start filtering up soon, but the biggest bats aren't going to hit the bigs until Reyes' contract is nearing/at its end. If they have to eat most of Reyes' deal, that's okay; it's going to be a while before they need that money.

Don't they have a top SS prospect whose almost ready? I don't really think there was a ton of logic that went into their thought process they could have for example traded him in the off-season and likely gotten a lot more when at that time he was coming off a near MVP type season and teams had tons of cash to throw around.

There were also reports of AA being rebuffed early in the offseason and the price being unreasonably high. I'm not sure what happened but it's clear -- something -- happened which caused them to change their thought process. Credit to AA for stepping in and capitalizing.

Some here have questioned the deal based on the prospects we were giving up but I also think you have to consider the fact we dumped Reyes into the equation as well. Frangraphs has the top 11-25 pitching prospects (Midseason ranking for BA for Hoffman was 33 I believe) as being worth 24.5 million so that basically accounts for then taking on Reyes.

Zips has Tulo being worth a surplus of 40 million on his contract. Who wouldn't give that up for Castro? Look I don't have a problem dealing prospects if the deal makes sense. The donaldson deal was a good bet. The Tulo deal is another good bet. What I have a problem with is the Dickey deal where we gave up a top prospect. Two in fact for a guy who was a fluke. Those are the types of deals we have to avoid because not only are they bad deals but they beget other bad deals to fill in the organization holes they create.

spikeslovechild wrote:Don't they have a top SS prospect whose almost ready? I don't really think there was a ton of logic that went into their thought process they could have for example traded him in the off-season and likely gotten a lot more when at that time he was coming off a near MVP type season and teams had tons of cash to throw around.

In the preceding offseason, Tulowitzki was coming off a substantial surgery and likely wouldn't have had quite the same value. In the following offseason, who knows; the trade deadline generally is the best point at which to move (non-expiring) vets, and apart from Reyes' contract it's hard to see them getting a better deal.

And yeah, they have Trevor Story approaching the bigs. But if they have to eat most of Reyes' contract to make room for him when the time comes, that's okay.

There were also reports of AA being rebuffed early in the offseason and the price being unreasonably high. I'm not sure what happened but it's clear -- something -- happened which caused them to change their thought process. Credit to AA for stepping in and capitalizing.

By AA's admission, what changed is that we met their price and agreed to part with Hoffman.

Some here have questioned the deal based on the prospects we were giving up but I also think you have to consider the fact we dumped Reyes into the equation as well. Frangraphs has the top 11-25 pitching prospects (Midseason ranking for BA for Hoffman was 33 I believe) as being worth 24.5 million so that basically accounts for then taking on Reyes.

Zips has Tulo being worth a surplus of 40 million on his contract. Who wouldn't give that up for Castro? Look I don't have a problem dealing prospects if the deal makes sense. The donaldson deal was a good bet. The Tulo deal is another good bet. What I have a problem with is the Dickey deal where we gave up a top prospect. Two in fact for a guy who was a fluke. Those are the types of deals we have to avoid because not only are they bad deals but they beget other bad deals to fill in the organization holes they create.

And it may well be that. It's well within the realm of possibility that Tulo will undershoot that projection, or Hoffman/Castro/Tinoco will outproduce the surplus value he provides. For a Rockies' club attempting to stockpile high-end arms in an attempt to overcome their hallowed inability to find decent pitching, it's a worthwhile roll of the dice.

The Donaldson trade was way different than the Tulo/Reyes trade. Not only were the Jays getting Donaldson's prime during his arbitration years, but they gave up low ceiling pitching prospects, an underachieving big leaguer, and a good hitting prospect in Low-A. With the Reyes deal, the Jays are getting Tulo's most expensive years in his 30's (5 more years with a full NTC) while giving up arguably their best prospect. It was a much riskier deal, although short-term it's a clear upgrade as Reyes looks done and Hoffman/Castro are probably a couple of years away.

But yes, it was the right time to move Reyes.

Michael Bradley wrote:The Donaldson trade was way different than the Tulo/Reyes trade. Not only were the Jays getting Donaldson's prime during his arbitration years, but they gave up low ceiling pitching prospects, an underachieving big leaguer, and a good hitting prospect in Low-A. With the Reyes deal, the Jays are getting Tulo's most expensive years in his 30's (5 more years with a full NTC) while giving up arguably their best prospect. It was a much riskier deal, although short-term it's a clear upgrade as Reyes looks done and Hoffman/Castro are probably a couple of years away.

But yes, it was the right time to move Reyes.

We will agree to disagree, Franklin Barreto was ranked 22nd in it's midseason rankings. Hoffman 33rd. Lawrie is well not advancing but was still highly regarded at the time of the trade. Personally, I think we gave up alot more in the Donaldson deal.

My point wasn't to say the deals are 1:1 mirror copies. I was trying to use both as an example of a good bet to take.

I think AA made up for giving up Baretto by acquiring Travis right after. Both were short good hitting second basemen but weak on D, although Baretto was obviously more highly touted one. Well as you see now it doesn't matter what you do in the minors but how well you perform in the majors and Travis is the real deal. His approach at the plate is similar to Baretto and his D has been the biggest surprise where we don't even know how Baretto will fare in the majors yet.

Check that Baretto was traded after the Travis deal and I know Baretto is a SS but I am not convinced he'll be one in the majors. I don't think he has enough range.

I can see why Reyes is struggling, mentally leaving a team and then seeing it do so well has to be tough. Even though I'm not thoroughly convinced we could not make a turn around with Reyes here, we were underperforming.

spikeslovechild wrote:Batting .194/.231/.222/.453 in 36 AB's and 9 games since the trade and his overall numbers have fallen to .274/.311/.366/.677 (it was around .700 at the time of the deal).

It looks like we got out at the right time. Col is going to find it extremely hard to move that contract during the waiver deadline and may find it impossible to move in the offseason if Reyes continues to slump.

And he's in the conversation for being the worst defensive SS in MLB.

I'm not sure why anyone was against this trade at the time, yes we gave up a couple of decent prospects but the upgrade at SS was massive. Of course I've been saying that Reyes isn't a SS anymore for 2 seasons.

The_Hater wrote:[quote="spikeslovechild"]Batting .194/.231/.222/.453 in 36 AB's and 9 games since the trade and his overall numbers have fallen to .274/.311/.366/.677 (it was around .700 at the time of the deal).

It looks like we got out at the right time. Col is going to find it extremely hard to move that contract during the waiver deadline and may find it impossible to move in the offseason if Reyes continues to slump.

And he's in the conversation for being the worst defensive SS in MLB.

I'm not sure why anyone was against this trade at the time, yes we gave up a couple of decent prospects but the upgrade at SS was massive. Of course I've been saying that Reyes isn't a SS anymore for 2 seasons.[/quote]

Because in three years time we could be saying the same thing about Tulo. Since he's come here they basically haven't lost so right now the trade seems like a no brainer. But once the dust settles and if Tulo has health issues once again then it won't look as rosy. Remember we all said the exact same things about Reyes when he arrived in 2012.

The winner of a trade like this, well like most trades actually, can't be definitively announced after three weeks.

Santoki wrote:

The_Hater wrote:
And he's in the conversation for being the worst defensive SS in MLB.

I'm not sure why anyone was against this trade at the time, yes we gave up a couple of decent prospects but the upgrade at SS was massive. Of course I've been saying that Reyes isn't a SS anymore for 2 seasons.

Because in three years time we could be saying the same thing about Tulo. Since he's come here they basically haven't lost so right now the trade seems like a no brainer. But once the dust settles and if Tulo has health issues once again then it won't look as rosy. Remember we all said the exact same things about Reyes when he arrived in 2012.

The winner of a trade like this, well like most trades actually, can't be definitively announced after three weeks.

Obviously. But since it's only 3 weeks after the trade, that's the only thing we have to go on as we discuss this.

I'm not a Reyes fan at all. I think he's terrible in the field and overrated at the plate and clearly getting worse. Any conversation about Tulo regressing 3 years from now is just speculation but I do think that Tulo right now is better than Reyes has ever been at any one point in his career (IMO) so I really like the odds of 2018 Tulo >> 2015 Reyes.