RealGM

While the Josh Donaldson vs. Mike Trout MVP debate is likely to persist until the end of this season, another discussion worth pondering is where Donaldson’s remarkable campaign ranks among the best in Blue Jays’ history. The dynamic third baseman has no doubt entered the conversation. Here’s a look at where he currently stands among the greatest individual seasons by Jays position players, according to Wins Above Replacement (as calculated by Baseball Reference).

http://www.thestar.com/sports/bluejays/2015/08/25/where-does-josh-donaldsons-season-rank-in-blue-jays-history.html

Still got to be Delgado in 2000 IMO. Wondering what the rest of you think?

Bell '87 is pretty impressive

Alex Rios?

Regulator wrote:Bell '87 is pretty impressive

Trammell should've won the MVP that year. That was a pretty HR/RBI inflated MVP vote. Though, such were the times.

**EDIT-- sorry, I know the OP is ranking against JAYS seasons, so it IS great (well, it's great regardless)... I've just always hated that Trammell got robbed that year, even though I bleed Blue and White. But I was off-topic with my correction. You were right-- Bell's season IS very impressive.

I'm still salty that Bautista didn't win in 2011.

EH15 wrote:I'm still salty that Bautista didn't win in 2011.

Alomar (or Puckett) should've won in '92

Bautista's 2011 (181 wRC+) was the best offensive season in Jays history. Donaldson could very well pass that season in overall value by the end of this year due to his defense, though.

Regulator wrote:Bell '87 is pretty impressive

Unfortunately Bell's MVP season looks worse and worse as advanced stats have evolved. I believe Robbie Alomar had better seasons.

The more I look at this, where do people think that Alomar's 1992-1993 seasons place in team history?

WAR was over 6.0 both seasons. OBP over .400 both seasons. Best defensive 2B in baseball in his prime. A true 5 tool player who could beat you multiple ways.

Of course MLB writers were so fixated on HR/RBI during that era that he finished 6th in the MVP balloting both seasons.

Randle McMurphy wrote:Bautista's 2011 (181 wRC+) was the best offensive season in Jays history. Donaldson could very well pass that season in overall value by the end of this year due to his defense, though.

Wondering here, is that the only stat (wRC+) needed to determine the best offensive season or something? I really don't know. So many other stats in baseball so I am sure we could sit here and debate all day but that's not gonna happen. Looking at a few other stats between Bautista's 2010 and 2011 and Delgado's 2000 season, it appears to me that Delgado was more impressive. I threw Delgado's 2003 season for comparison and because it was another great season of his.

I think I picked some stats that determine a pretty good offensive player. I didnt just pick these because I saw Delgado led most of the below categories. Again Im sure you could pick other stats to back up Bautista but at the end of the day Delgado wins though IMO.

Delgado
2000 Major League Player of the Year
2000 AL Hank Aaron Award

Bautista
2010 AL Hank Aaron Award
2011 AL Hank Aaron Award



Slugging % - Delgado

Delgado
2000 AL .664 (2nd)
2003 AL .593 (2nd)
Career .546 (26th)

Bautista
2010 AL .617 (3rd)
2011 AL .608 (1st)
Career .495 (118th)

On-Base Plus Slugging - Delgado

Delgado
2000 AL 1.134 (2nd)
2003 AL 1.019 (1st)
Career .929 (37th)

Bautista
2010 AL .995 (3rd)
2011 AL 1.056 (1st)
Active .861 (17th)
Career .861 (128th)

Adjusted OPS+ -Bautista

Delgado
2000 AL 181 (3rd)
2003 AL 161 (1st)
Career 138 (87th)

Bautista
2010 AL 164 (3rd)
2011 AL 182 (1st)
Career 131 (160th)

Adjusted Batting Wins -Delgado
Statistic Description: Adjusted Batting Wins A set of formulas developed by Gary Gillette, Pete Palmer and others that estimates a player’s total contributions to a team’s wins with his bat

Delgado
2000 AL 7.0 (1st)
2003 AL 5.3 (1st)
Career 41.0 (69th)

Bautista
2010 AL 5.0 (2nd)
2011 AL 6.4 (2nd)
Active 21.1 (17th)


Total Bases - Delgado

Delgado
2000 AL 378 (1st)
2003 AL 338 (7th)
Career 3,976 (92nd)

Bautista
2010 AL 351 (1st)
2011 AL 312 (6th)
Active 2,277 (42nd)

RBI -Delgado

Delgado
2000 AL 137 (4th)
2003 AL 145 (1st)
Career 1,512 (52nd

Bautista
2010 AL 124 (3rd)
2011 AL 103 (10th)
Active 766 (33rd)

Hits -Delgado

Delgado
2000 AL 196 (6th)

Bautista
2010 AL 148
2011 AL 155

Extra Base Hits -Delgado
Statistic Description: Doubles + Triples + Homeruns

Delgado
2000 AL 99 (1st)
2003 AL 81 (5th)
Career 974 (42nd)

Bautista
2010 AL 92 (1st)
Active 529 (37th)


Runs Created - Delgado

Delgado
2000 AL 186 (1st)
2003 AL 152 (1st)
Career 1,588 (69th)

Bautista
2010 AL 139 (2nd)
2011 AL 149 (1st)
Active 871 (32nd)

Offensive Win % -Delgado
Statistic Description: Offensive Winning Percentage The percentage of games a team with nine of this player batting would win. Assumes average pitching and defense.

Delgado
2000 AL .822 (3rd)
2003 AL .773 (1st)
Career .678 (118th)

Bautista
2010 AL .749 (4th)
2011 AL .822 (1st)
Active .637 (22nd)

Offensive WAR -Bautista
Statistic Description: Offensive Wins Above Replacement (everything but Fielding) The same statistic as Wins Above Replacement for Position Players (WAR), but with the fielding value excluded. oWAR + dWAR does not equal WAR. Adding would count positions twice. Contains the factor for batting stats, baserunning, a positional adjustment, and the replacement player adjustment

Delgado
2000 AL 8.1 (3rd)
2003 AL 6.5 (2nd)
Career 50.3 (162nd)

Bautista
2010 AL 7.2 (2nd)
2011 AL 8.3 (1st)
Active 35.5 (26th)

Rhythm043 wrote:

Randle McMurphy wrote:Bautista's 2011 (181 wRC+) was the best offensive season in Jays history. Donaldson could very well pass that season in overall value by the end of this year due to his defense, though.

Wondering here, is that the only stat (wRC+) needed to determine the best offensive season or something? I really don't know. So many other stats in baseball so I am sure we could sit here and debate all day but that's not gonna happen. Looking at a few other stats between Bautista's 2010 and 2011 and Delgado's 2000 season, it appears to me that Delgado was more impressive. I threw Delgado's 2003 season for comparison and because it was another great season of his.

I think I picked some stats that determine a pretty good offensive player. I didnt just pick these because I saw Delgado led most of the below categories. Again Im sure you could pick other stats to back up Bautista but at the end of the day Delgado wins though IMO.

It makes little sense to look at many of those stats (especially the counting ones) when the offensive environments in 2000 and 2011 were very different. Bautista's offensive season was superior to Delgado's relative to his league/era (basically it was more impressive for Bautista to do what he did in 2011 than what Delgado did in 2000) and wRC+ denotes that.

Randle McMurphy wrote:

Rhythm043 wrote:

Randle McMurphy wrote:Bautista's 2011 (181 wRC+) was the best offensive season in Jays history. Donaldson could very well pass that season in overall value by the end of this year due to his defense, though.

Wondering here, is that the only stat (wRC+) needed to determine the best offensive season or something? I really don't know. So many other stats in baseball so I am sure we could sit here and debate all day but that's not gonna happen. Looking at a few other stats between Bautista's 2010 and 2011 and Delgado's 2000 season, it appears to me that Delgado was more impressive. I threw Delgado's 2003 season for comparison and because it was another great season of his.

I think I picked some stats that determine a pretty good offensive player. I didnt just pick these because I saw Delgado led most of the below categories. Again Im sure you could pick other stats to back up Bautista but at the end of the day Delgado wins though IMO.

It makes little sense to look at many of those stats (especially the counting ones) when the offensive environments in 2000 and 2011 were very different. Bautista's offensive season was superior to Delgado's relative to his league/era (basically it was more impressive for Bautista to do what he did in 2011 than what Delgado did in 2000) and wRC+ denotes that.

You're forgetting a key factor. Drugs and plenty of 'em.

Probably half of the stars in 2000 were hitting the juice hard, which lead to the inflated numbers during that year. Meanwhile, Carlos played clean.

Imo, Delgado 2000 tops the list, Bautista is 2nd by a hair, and if he keeps it up, Donaldson can finish as #1 due to his spectacular defense on top of his spectacular offense.

It's pretty naive to think Delgado "played clean"

Kurtz wrote:
You're forgetting a key factor. Drugs and plenty of 'em.

Probably half of the stars in 2000 were hitting the juice hard, which lead to the inflated numbers during that year. Meanwhile, Carlos played clean.

Imo, Delgado 2000 tops the list, Bautista is 2nd by a hair, and if he keeps it up, Donaldson can finish as #1 due to his spectacular defense on top of his spectacular offense.

#1: There's far more than PEDs that accounted for the inflated numbers in those days (smaller strikezones, smaller/more HR friendly ballparks, livier baseballs, the expansion era, no defensive shifts, etc.).
#2. We have no idea whether Delgado was clean (or anyone else for that matter), so I don't quite get basing anything on that assumption.
#3. Based on the numbers adjusting for league/era (which is really all we have to go on), Bautista's season was superior and the best offensive season in Jays history. That takes nothing away from Delgado (who might just be my favourite Jay ever), but Bautista was incredible in 2011.

engageTHEmasses wrote:

Regulator wrote:Bell '87 is pretty impressive

Trammell should've won the MVP that year. That was a pretty HR/RBI inflated MVP vote. Though, such were the times.

**EDIT-- sorry, I know the OP is ranking against JAYS seasons, so it IS great (well, it's great regardless)... I've just always hated that Trammell got robbed that year, even though I bleed Blue and White. But I was off-topic with my correction. You were right-- Bell's season IS very impressive.

Trammell wasn't even the best left infielder that year. Boggs should've been MVP.
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=1987&month=0&season1=1987&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

Hoopstarr wrote:

engageTHEmasses wrote:

Regulator wrote:Bell '87 is pretty impressive

Trammell should've won the MVP that year. That was a pretty HR/RBI inflated MVP vote. Though, such were the times.

**EDIT-- sorry, I know the OP is ranking against JAYS seasons, so it IS great (well, it's great regardless)... I've just always hated that Trammell got robbed that year, even though I bleed Blue and White. But I was off-topic with my correction. You were right-- Bell's season IS very impressive.

Trammell wasn't even the best left infielder that year. Boggs should've been MVP.
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=1987&month=0&season1=1987&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

It was close but you don't give the Award to the guy on the 4th place team in the division over the guy who played on the top team in the entire league.

Trammell should have won in a walk but it was the era where RBI totals trumped everything else.

Randle McMurphy wrote:#3. Based on the numbers adjusting for league/era (which is really all we have to go on), Bautista's season was superior and the best offensive season in Jays history. That takes nothing away from Delgado (who might just be my favourite Jay ever), but Bautista was incredible in 2011.

Exactly this. In 2000 Delgado had several other players in the MLB performing as well or better than he was, It was surprising to me to see names like Darrin Erstad and Troy Glaus with a higher fWar in 2000 than Delgado's was. I didn't really look at advanced stats back then but it's surprsing when you look back. Delgado finished that year 4th in MVP voting and a top 10 in fWar whereas Bautista and Donaldson are or were arguable top2 in the league for their seasons.

It's not over yet. We got the whole month of Sept. to go as well! Just saying! GO JAYS GO! ! ! !

UN-Owen wrote:It's pretty naive to think Delgado "played clean"

Carlos' rookie card. The man was born a tank, no juice needed.

Kurtz wrote:Carlos' rookie card. The man was born a tank, no juice needed.

So he couldn't have used PEDs in the minors before he was a MLB rookie? That's not exactly an uncommon phenomenon.