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We shouldn't be talking in absolutes. Yes, I lament over what MIGHT have been. But some people are talking like TDA and NS would have turned out exactly the same had we kept them.

That's not how baseball works. More than any other major team sport, the career of a baseball player has so much variance. That's why the draft is much more of a crapshoot.

We've seen so many so-called surefire stars flame out. We've seen guys break out into MVP candidates (we've had two of them in Jose and JD). Situations make players. Let's not act like we would have the same NS and TDA.

situations can enable a players potential but talent still wins out at the end of the day. dealing your top position player and a top pitching prospect for three years of a knuckleballer was always bold as ****. the trade was terrible from the onset it was just a question of how bad would it be. can't see a way to sugarcoat this. could potentially go down as the worst deal in AA's tenure, but each GM has one and AA was a net positive during his tenure imo, so while it'll be hard watching thor dominate for years, just have to accept it's part of sport and all fanbases have to live with big what ifs.

I agree, if we had Noah we probably would have rushed him to the big leagues and he'd be our closer.

P.S i always thought it was a stupid move.

I agree on the situation theory. For example Yan Gomes. He was a good propspects and the team recognized that. However, the Jays did not view him as the future catcher. Jays were loaded with catchers coming up soon. Gomes was being groomed as a utility type guy. Getting time at 3B and LF..... the Indians put him behind the plate and he took off. Had that trade not happened, Yan Gomes would not be the player he is today.

Though, this is different. d'Arnaud was the #1 prospects and almost MLB ready. The only guy standing in his was Arenciba, who was starting to show his true game at that point. If d'Arnaud was not traded, he would have been the Jays Catcher. He does not have the experience that Russell Martin has, but he is the better player, cheaper and younger. Only thing negative about d'Arnaud was his injury history. Jays should held on and gambled.

Syndergaard was kinda a question though. He was a top prospect but most people in the organization and a lot of others, including me thought Aaron Sanchez was the best arm in the system. Syndergaard had huge potential, but nothing was guaranteed. He was a few years away anyway. I can see why AA gambled. If you are trading for a Cy-Young winner you gotta give up something. Fair game.

Ump -- **** this, game was long enough. That is a strike.

Anyway, I respect the Kansas City Royals ability as a baseball team, and the way management built that team up.

Will not say much about the individual players, as I know many here have passionate hatred for them (and mostly fairly)

s e n s i wrote:situations can enable a players potential but talent still wins out at the end of the day. dealing your top position player and a top pitching prospect for three years of a knuckleballer was always bold as ****. the trade was terrible from the onset it was just a question of how bad would it be. can't see a way to sugarcoat this. could potentially go down as the worst deal in AA's tenure, but each GM has one and AA was a net positive during his tenure imo, so while it'll be hard watching thor dominate for years, just have to accept it's part of sport and all fanbases have to live with big what ifs.

Oh I agree with you. It's a poor trade regardless. My point isn't that it's a justifiable trade. I'm just saying if we hadn't made the trade, our direction would have been different. Probably in better shape long-term, but different.

Even if we say TDA and NS would have turned out the same here, our roster would look pretty different. I've just heard some ppl say (not necessarily on this board) that we could've had this team minus RAD plus NS and TDA. That's not how it goes.

Patman wrote:We shouldn't be talking in absolutes. Yes, I lament over what MIGHT have been. But some people are talking like TDA and NS would have turned out exactly the same had we kept them.

That's not how baseball works. More than any other major team sport, the career of a baseball player has so much variance. That's why the draft is much more of a crapshoot.

We've seen so many so-called surefire stars flame out. We've seen guys break out into MVP candidates (we've had two of them in Jose and JD). Situations make players. Let's not act like we would have the same NS and TDA.

The problem I always had was with the Dickey trade was two parts to it. They just made a huge deal to contend, what was the rush to get a 38 year old knuckleballer coming off a Cy Young? Was Dickey really going to make that much of a difference to what the team was planning to be based on the other moves?

Also, they gave up too much for a guy who throws a knuckleball, who found his groove late in his career. You don't really want to give up two top notch prospects for a guy like that. They should have held stronger and to only offer one of those two prospects, preferably D'Arnaud and some lesser prospect they have.

The Mets sold high, and the price we paid was enormous. There's no logical way to sugar coat it.

I despised the trade at that time and not simply because Dickey was a 38 year old knuckleballer coming over to the american league east. I wasn't sold on just giving up TDA and when I heard Syndergaard was rumored as part of the deal (before it was officially announced) my insides churned and I flipped out inside.

That was definitely a bad year especialyl if you include the Marlin's Josh Johnson. Not that we gave up that much but considering how poorly he pitched for the year he was here...

The price was definitely too high for Dickey that basically uses a trick pitch. Even though Dickey has given us 3 pretty good years losing Syndergaard hurts. Although if you think about it, the way AA spent prospects, he would have probably been part of some deal anyways.

The Jays also gave up Wuilmer Becerra who at 20 years old is a good potential prospect. It was a terrible trade. Guys like me and lateral quicks were extremely vocal about it at the time not to meet the Mets ridiculous demands. If you follow the time line of events in the New York Papers- the Jays for a couple of weeks were only willing to part with one of D'Arnaud and Syndergaard. However, the Mets told them they wanted both. Toronto said NO. Then one day after a couple of weeks of negotiations, AA said okay and met the demand of the Mets; convincing himself that Dickey was the missing piece.

Even ESPN at the time said that GM's and scouts around the league were shocked the Jays gave up both top prospects and even Becerra as well. Dickey was a 38 year old one trick pony knuckler, who pitched in a pitcher friendly park and a league with no DH; now heading to the tough AL East. It was an unnecessary gamble. The consensus at the time on ESPN and some other highly respected writers were that the Jays gave up too much. In all fairness, if the Jays had gone to the World Series and beaten the Mets like KC did last night, even guys like me would have said at least we got a banner (lol). Shame the Jays could not beat the Royals though. No GM is perfect I guess.

Terrible trade.

AA should have been patient. You can always add an arm after the season starts.
Probably the worst trade in franchise history, that is how bad it was.

I was ranting bout this trade on here with all you all bout losing synagarrd,someone said mets gm would had been good with just d naud wonder if mets ask for sanchez and was stern aa would buckle and jays would still have synagarrd.

whysoserious wrote:

Patman wrote:We shouldn't be talking in absolutes. Yes, I lament over what MIGHT have been. But some people are talking like TDA and NS would have turned out exactly the same had we kept them.

That's not how baseball works. More than any other major team sport, the career of a baseball player has so much variance. That's why the draft is much more of a crapshoot.

We've seen so many so-called surefire stars flame out. We've seen guys break out into MVP candidates (we've had two of them in Jose and JD). Situations make players. Let's not act like we would have the same NS and TDA.

The problem I always had was with the Dickey trade was two parts to it. They just made a huge deal to contend, what was the rush to get a 38 year old knuckleballer coming off a Cy Young? Was Dickey really going to make that much of a difference to what the team was planning to be based on the other moves?

Also, they gave up too much for a guy who throws a knuckleball, who found his groove late in his career. You don't really want to give up two top notch prospects for a guy like that. They should have held stronger and to only offer one of those two prospects, preferably D'Arnaud and some lesser prospect they have.

Exactly what i was thunking AA just got on this "high" on trades he lost it.

bluerap23 wrote:Terrible trade.

AA should have been patient. You can always add an arm after the season starts.
Probably the worst trade in franchise history, that is how bad it was.

Thats what everyone was thinking after the marlins trade.Some were saying bring back marcum for a short term deal at the time.

suntzuballin wrote:

bluerap23 wrote:Terrible trade.

AA should have been patient. You can always add an arm after the season starts.
Probably the worst trade in franchise history, that is how bad it was.

Thats what everyone was thinking after the marlins trade.Some were saying bring back marcum for a short term deal at the time.

I still dislike the Marlins trade, but think it was far more reasonable.

d'Arnaud and Syndergaard were not two unknown prospects. They were considered two of the best in the MLB at the time. The #1 and #2 prospects in a deep Jays farm.

Jays coulda traded that pair for any star pitcher, batter, u name it, that any team would ever put on the block.... Too bad Dickey was the big fish that offseason.

Patman wrote:We shouldn't be talking in absolutes. Yes, I lament over what MIGHT have been. But some people are talking like TDA and NS would have turned out exactly the same had we kept them.

That's not how baseball works. More than any other major team sport, the career of a baseball player has so much variance. That's why the draft is much more of a crapshoot.

We've seen so many so-called surefire stars flame out. We've seen guys break out into MVP candidates (we've had two of them in Jose and JD). Situations make players. Let's not act like we would have the same NS and TDA.

Sorry but this is just wishful thinking Patman. Even ignoring that they were both highly regarded prospects, NS is a pitcher so he would have got an opportunity with any team. And he looks like an absolute stud. And TD only had Arencebia and subsequently Navarro in his path. His only issue has always been health. Even looking at the time, why trade your highly regarded C prospect when you might have MLBs worst starting C manning the position?

OP, I love the optimism, but I know you're making this thread/post because you are as desperate to get over this god awful trade like myself. But I just can't. Can't do it at all.

AA overvalued Dickey, an NL pitcher coming to the AL doesn't usually work the best. He's also an aging player, despite being a knuckle-ball pitcher, and those are the type of players you don't want to trade prospects for, especially coming off a CY young award.

Mets sold Dickey at his ultimate peak, that is great management. They knew they could get a great package for an aging player, and AA should've kept his patience and waited it out until the Dickey hype fizzled out a bit. But nope, he went the whole nine yards and it screwed the farm system up.

I hate this trade so much. The Donaldson trade doesn't make up for it either. In fact, I would've rather not done the Donaldson trade if that meant keeping Syndergaard instead. D'Arnaud is an injury prone catcher, and though he is a talented player, I would've been content with trading him straight up for Dickey at the time. Syndergaard was a prospect I always had high hopes for when he was in our farm system.

I cannot state how much I hate this trade. When AA was fired, I did not mind, simply because.....you guessed it....I HATE THIS F'N TRADE

AirCanadaMouse wrote:OP, I love the optimism, but I know you're making this thread/post because you are as desperate to get over this god awful trade like myself. But I just can't. Can't do it at all.

AA overvalued Dickey, an NL pitcher coming to the AL doesn't usually work the best. He's also an aging player, despite being a knuckle-ball pitcher, and those are the type of players you don't want to trade prospects for, especially coming off a CY young award.

Mets sold Dickey at his ultimate peak, that is great management. They knew they could get a great package for an aging player, and AA should've kept his patience and waited it out until the Dickey hype fizzled out a bit. But nope, he went the whole nine yards and it screwed the farm system up.

I hate this trade so much. The Donaldson trade doesn't make up for it either. In fact, I would've rather not done the Donaldson trade if that meant keeping Syndergaard instead. D'Arnaud is an injury prone catcher, and though he is a talented player, I would've been content with trading him straight up for Dickey at the time. Syndergaard was a prospect I always had high hopes for when he was in our farm system.

I cannot state how much I hate this trade. When AA was fired, I did not mind, simply because.....you guessed it....I HATE THIS F'N TRADE

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42b-Inq6l6E[/youtube]

Randle McMurphy wrote:

AirCanadaMouse wrote:OP, I love the optimism, but I know you're making this thread/post because you are as desperate to get over this god awful trade like myself. But I just can't. Can't do it at all.

AA overvalued Dickey, an NL pitcher coming to the AL doesn't usually work the best. He's also an aging player, despite being a knuckle-ball pitcher, and those are the type of players you don't want to trade prospects for, especially coming off a CY young award.

Mets sold Dickey at his ultimate peak, that is great management. They knew they could get a great package for an aging player, and AA should've kept his patience and waited it out until the Dickey hype fizzled out a bit. But nope, he went the whole nine yards and it screwed the farm system up.

I hate this trade so much. The Donaldson trade doesn't make up for it either. In fact, I would've rather not done the Donaldson trade if that meant keeping Syndergaard instead. D'Arnaud is an injury prone catcher, and though he is a talented player, I would've been content with trading him straight up for Dickey at the time. Syndergaard was a prospect I always had high hopes for when he was in our farm system.

I cannot state how much I hate this trade. When AA was fired, I did not mind, simply because.....you guessed it....I HATE THIS F'N TRADE

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42b-Inq6l6E[/youtube]

It's tough to do so.