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SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers

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SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers 

Post#1 » by Raps in 4 » Wed Nov 4, 2015 4:46 am

I'm not sure if this has already been discussed in one of our series threads (I'm sure it has), but I just saw it posted on the general board and thought it was interesting. Tables are in the link.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/2015-mlb-playoffs-bullpen-managers-mike-matheny-joe-girardi/

The article ranks managers based on bullpen management using a stat called BMAR, and it doesn't look good for Gibby.

I thought that Gibbons did a good job with the bullpen during both his tenures, but according to this stat, he has been one of the worst bullpen managers in baseball over the past 3 seasons.

This should provide vindication for the fire Gibbons crowd. I don't know enough about the stat to dispute it.

The stat explained:

After the 2009 season, former Baseball Prospectus author and quantitative consultant Tim Kniker developed a managerial reliever-use rating system, which he dubbed Bullpen Management Above Random. BMAR’s purpose is simple: It’s a way of assessing how closely each manager lined up his best relievers with his team’s highest-leverage relief opportunities. Essentially, it’s a stat that tells us how often a manager’s bullpen moves made fans lie awake and wonder, “Why him?”


BMAR rates managers based on their relievers’ Weighted On-Base Average allowed to righties and lefties over the previous 12 calendar months.2 BMAR’s baseline — the standard by which all managers are judged — is a team’s theoretical distribution of bullpen outings had the manager assigned relievers using eeny, meeny, miny, moe. To produce the ratings, Tim sums each bullpen’s actual totals of left- and right-handed batters faced and calculates how much more effectively the manager could have distributed the same workload, given the relievers on his roster at the time. You can think of each manager’s BMAR as an answer to this question: In light of the bullpen he had, how much better (in wOBA points allowed) were the relievers he did choose than the relievers he could’ve chosen at random?


Shortcomings:

A couple of caveats: First, while we know which pitchers were on the active roster on a given day, we don’t know which pitchers were actually unavailable (or less effective than usual) because of overuse, illness, nagging injury, or a stubborn latch on the bullpen-bathroom door. And we’re assessing only one aspect of bullpen management: which reliever the manager chose once he decided to make a move. If some managers are better than others at judging when to take out their starters, or at keeping relievers fresh by limiting how often they warm up or enter games — and some of them undoubtedly are — then this method will miss that extra value. And since we’re simply reassigning each team’s actual matchups against left-handed and right-handed batters to the most logically leveraged scenarios based on ability, we’re also overlooking the ability of some managers to gain the platoon advantage more often. But we can judge managers independent of bullpen quality: To adjust for the fact that some managers have better late-game relievers to work with, and can therefore make more of a difference by choosing their best available reliever at a crucial moment instead of their mop-up man, we’ll compare each manager to a personalized standard of how well he could have done with his own array of relievers.


According to Kniker’s wOBA-to-wins conversion, the difference between the best and worst manager by BMAR in a given season is on the order of four wins: not enough to turn a good team into a bad one (or vice versa)


Matheny and the Blue Jays’ John Gibbons may have been among the worst bullpen managers this season, but they didn’t prevent their teams from taking division titles.
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Re: SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers 

Post#2 » by JoeyBats » Wed Nov 4, 2015 4:57 am

I don't know if i would put any stock into a stat indicating that Jon Farrell is better at managing a bullpen than Gibby.
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Re: SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers 

Post#3 » by Lateral Quicks » Wed Nov 4, 2015 12:52 pm

I've never heard of this stat, but anything that confirms Gibby didn't manage his bullpen well last year wouldn't surprise me.
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Re: SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers 

Post#4 » by Kurtz » Wed Nov 4, 2015 3:29 pm

Interesting to see Bud Black at the top there, considering that he might be our next manager. Not surprising to see Joe "bullpen whisperer" Girardi at #2.

Gibbons' defenders have oft cited his bullpen management as his biggest strength. Take that away, and I think people would be hard-pressed to name one thing Gibbons is actually good at.
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Re: SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers 

Post#5 » by Skin Blues » Wed Nov 4, 2015 3:49 pm

Gibbons defenders don't use any facts to defend him, they use anecdotes. This is why.
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Re: SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers 

Post#6 » by Fairview4Life » Wed Nov 4, 2015 3:59 pm

Facts with caveats you can drive a bus through.
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Re: SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers 

Post#7 » by Skin Blues » Wed Nov 4, 2015 4:34 pm

He has had one of the best relief pitchers in baseball for three years. Last year that guy was second fiddle to Casey Janssen and Sergio Santos for most of the year (who were both terrible), and this year, to Roberto Osuna (who was good but not nearly as good as Cecil) and Miguel Castro (who was terrible). Castro was handed the job, and kept it for all of April, after one bad inning as closer from Cecil. It's no surprise that a stat that shows how innings are assigned to relievers gives him a poor rating.
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Re: SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers 

Post#8 » by Shimso » Wed Nov 4, 2015 6:11 pm

Possibly a dumb question but: is there a stat that measures/suggest how well a manager knows when to pull the starter and invoke the bullpen?
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Re: SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers 

Post#9 » by Fairview4Life » Wed Nov 4, 2015 6:34 pm

Skin Blues wrote:He has had one of the best relief pitchers in baseball for three years. Last year that guy was second fiddle to Casey Janssen and Sergio Santos for most of the year (who were both terrible), and this year, to Roberto Osuna (who was good but not nearly as good as Cecil) and Miguel Castro (who was terrible). Castro was handed the job, and kept it for all of April, after one bad inning as closer from Cecil. It's no surprise that a stat that shows how innings are assigned to relievers gives him a poor rating.


Cecil was hurt (presumably, I can't remember the specifics) and not good prior to July. It wasn't just the one bad inning. This is one of the issues with the stats here. There was a marked difference between the Cecil in the first half and the Cecil from the last 3 months of the year who's numbers were so good they made his season numbers look much better than what they were in the first half.

I am also not sure why you are so focused on the title of 'closer'. In the second half, when Cecil was insanely good, Gibbons used him in most of the Jays highest leverage spots. Saving him for the 9th inning is the kind of thing we shouldn't want Gibbons to do. Cecil was his man when it mattered for like 2 months of the year once he realized he could trust him, and he didn't need a day off or whatever (another thing those numbers admittedly don't account for).
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Re: SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers 

Post#10 » by JaysRule15 » Wed Nov 4, 2015 7:04 pm

Talking just about this season, I do feel like Gibby should've taken more advantage of the different arms in the pen rather than going to the same guys in high leverage situations. For example, Gibby didn't trust Lowe and Hendriks at all, despite them having good numbers and strikeout rates. On the flip side, he used Loup against righties a lot during the first half of the season despite righties crushing Loup. And in the playoffs, it seemed like our pen basically consisted of Sanchez and Osuna. Gibby trusted no one else. Imo, Sanchez shouldn't be coming into games with runners on base since he's a groundball guy and gives up a ton of contact. I still remember being against Gibby's decision to bring Sanchez in to relieve Price with a runner on second base in Game 6. Much better to bring in a strikeout guy like Lowe in that situation.

Overall, Gibby was a good pen manager. He just had his favorites that he trusted completely and was willing to live or die with in every high leverage situation. Granted, those favorites were our best relievers. But they weren't always the best guys to pitch in the situation they were brought into.
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Re: SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers 

Post#11 » by Skin Blues » Wed Nov 4, 2015 7:11 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:I am also not sure why you are so focused on the title of 'closer'. In the second half, when Cecil was insanely good, Gibbons used him in most of the Jays highest leverage spots. Saving him for the 9th inning is the kind of thing we shouldn't want Gibbons to do. Cecil was his man when it mattered for like 2 months of the year once he realized he could trust him, and he didn't need a day off or whatever (another thing those numbers admittedly don't account for).

This is just false. Look at the in-game leverage for each pitcher. Even post-ASB, Osuna was consistently used in much higher leverage situations than Cecil. 1.66 to 1.25 in-game leverage, and Sanchez and Lowe were right behind Cecil at 1.20 and 1.10). Even LaTroy Hawkins was used in higher leverage situations in August (1.15 to 0.95). And these are the months that Cecil was Gibby's "man". And this is the least egregious of the mistakes. Spending all of April with Castro as the closer, and 2014 with Janssen/Santos is much worse.

The reason you focus on who the closer is, is because that is the guy that gets by far the most high leverage situations. Sure, sometimes it's just mopup if there's a 3 runs lead, and there are a lot of high leverage spots in the 7th and 8th, but the comparison is not close; overall, if you have a closer that you use for all save situations (which every manager including Gibby does) he will overwhelmingly get the highest leverage situations. And the funny thing is that this Grantland article is measuring how well managers play the platoon advantage. If Gibby is sacrificing leverage in order to be more flexible with regards to platoons, why is he at the bottom of the list??
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Re: SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers 

Post#12 » by Lateral Quicks » Wed Nov 4, 2015 7:37 pm

Lowe was arguably our best reliever, and Gibby used him frequently for mop-up duty. Hendriks was used in blowouts despite being one of our more effective relievers in the first half of the year. Castro was used more than every other game, even when his results started to go south (no doubt in part due to his insane workload). Francis was used on more than one occasion in close games, with all-too predictable results. The list goes on an on.

Gibby's bullpen management was more or less OK in previous years, and that's why you never saw nearly the extent of complains about him as you have this year. The criticism is very, very well deserved.
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Re: SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers 

Post#13 » by RapsFanInVA » Wed Nov 4, 2015 7:43 pm

I feel like during the first half of the season, no matter who came out of the bullpen in a tight game, they s*** the bed. It felt really fluky that normally reliable guys would come in and suck. It got better during the 2nd half, mostly due to Cecil and Osuna being good.

Also our starters were s*** during the first half and our bullpen was completely overworked, so sometimes our best guys just weren't available. This stat can't account for that.
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Re: SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers 

Post#14 » by vaff87 » Wed Nov 4, 2015 7:59 pm

This thread is nothing until Randle chimes in.
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Re: SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers 

Post#15 » by changes » Wed Nov 4, 2015 8:02 pm

vaff87 wrote:This thread is nothing until Randle chimes in.

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Re: SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers 

Post#16 » by Skin Blues » Wed Nov 4, 2015 8:21 pm

Here let me help you:

"We needed a reliable lefty in the 7th and 8th innings, therefore it doesn't matter that we used our best pitcher in suboptimal situations for the past two seasons, even though for one of those seasons said reliable lefty was actually better against righties due to his platoon-busting pitches. He put an unproven rookie in the closer role and he flopped, but how was he supposed to know that ahead of time? It worked for Osuna, so it could have worked for Castro. And besides, most managers are really terrible at bullpen usage, so it really doesn't matter if Gibby made any mistakes."

There ya go. You'll have to pretend that there are 50 different quote blocks addressing tangential issues.
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Re: SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers 

Post#17 » by jaymeister15 » Wed Nov 4, 2015 8:46 pm

Skin Blues wrote: and Sanchez and Lowe were right behind Cecil at 1.20 and 1.10.


Lateral Quicks wrote:Lowe was arguably our best reliever, and Gibby used him frequently for mop-up duty.


Haven't had a chance to read through the article, just the replies in the thread so far. But, I did enjoy these back to back posts.

Both posters on the same side of the "Does Gibby suck or not?" argument, but one guy complaining Lowe was used in too many high leverage situations relative to Cecil, and the other complaining Lowe was used for mop-up duty too often. Just goes to show that no matter what a manager does, there are going to be people complaining about it.
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Re: SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers 

Post#18 » by Suga2Panda » Wed Nov 4, 2015 9:16 pm

There are some pretty big caveats. I'm not going to pretend like I know whether this stat is actually meaningful in any way.
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Re: SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers 

Post#19 » by Randle McMurphy » Thu Nov 5, 2015 12:34 am

vaff87 wrote:This thread is nothing until Randle chimes in.

Seems I've been requested here. :D

It largely comes down to Liam Hendriks and what Gibbons thought of him. Hendriks was, in actuality, the team's best statistical reliever all season (topped in both WAR/FIP). He especially annihilated RHBs (.219 wOBA). Despite this, Gibbons used him as a mop-up man to keep games from getting away. He did this because he did not trust the guy in the slightest based on how poorly he had done in high leverage situations earlier in the season (.433 wOBA in such spots). Whether you think that was a mistake or not (I do, I think Hendriks should be given more opportunity in 2016), he thought the guy couldn't handle the pressure and managed his bullpen accordingly.

This all meant, though, that Gibbons would have been docked in this particular stat virtually every time he used somebody else on the team over Hendriks (particularly against RHBs). Hell, Hendriks would have often even been the statistically optimum choice over Cecil or Osuna. It's no small wonder, then, that Gibbons' ranking on this stat is so poor this season and why his 2015 is significantly weighing down what would have been an otherwise above-average ranking in the previous two years. Of course, Cecil being an absolute untrustworthy mess (he couldn't even throw strikes to LHBs for a good stretch) for a few months there also would have hurt Gibbons as the stat would have simply looked at Cecil's overall 12 calendar months and not how poorly he was doing at that current point in time in the first half of the season. The possibility of a good-to-great reliever dropping off quickly like that (and the inability to actually adjust for it) would actually seem to be quite the flaw for BMAR.

I have other questions about the methodology here (such as whether they adjusted strictly for Sanchez's far better numbers as a RP or whether they just looked at Sanchez in the overall which would have hurt Gibbons appreciably in this stat), but if you're looking for answers here, Gibbons' odd but somewhat understandable relationship with Hendriks stands out prominently.
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Re: SOTD: Gibbons is one of the worst bullpen managers 

Post#20 » by Kurtz » Thu Nov 5, 2015 1:54 am

Randle McMurphy wrote:
vaff87 wrote:This thread is nothing until Randle chimes in.

Seems I've been requested here. :D

It largely comes down to Liam Hendriks and what Gibbons thought of him. Hendriks was, in actuality, the team's best statistical reliever all season (topped in both WAR/FIP). He especially annihilated RHBs (.219 wOBA). Despite this, Gibbons used him as a mop-up man to keep games from getting away. He did this because he did not trust the guy in the slightest based on how poorly he had done in high leverage situations earlier in the season (.433 wOBA in such spots). Whether you think that was a mistake or not (I do, I think Hendriks should be given more opportunity in 2016), he thought the guy couldn't handle the pressure and managed his bullpen accordingly.

This all meant, though, that Gibbons would have been docked in this particular stat virtually every time he used somebody else on the team over Hendriks (particularly against RHBs). Hell, Hendriks would have often even been the statistically optimum choice over Cecil or Osuna. It's no small wonder, then, that Gibbons' ranking on this stat is so poor this season and why his 2015 is significantly weighing down what would have been an otherwise above-average ranking in the previous two years. Of course, Cecil being an absolute untrustworthy mess (he couldn't even throw strikes to LHBs for a good stretch) for a few months there also would have hurt Gibbons as the stat would have simply looked at Cecil's overall 12 calendar months and not how poorly he was doing at that current point in time in the first half of the season. The possibility of a good-to-great reliever dropping off quickly like that (and the inability to actually adjust for it) would actually seem to be quite the flaw for BMAR.

I have other questions about the methodology here (such as whether they adjusted strictly for Sanchez's far better numbers as a RP or whether they just looked at Sanchez in the overall which would have hurt Gibbons appreciably in this stat), but if you're looking for answers here, Gibbons' odd but somewhat understandable relationship with Hendriks stands out prominently.



Good analysis. But tallying his mistakes, we have:

1. Not using Liam enough
2. Not using Lowe enough
3. Using Loup against righties
4. Using Sanchez against lefties
5. Using Hawkins in high leverage too much
6. The Castro debacle

So that's what he did wrong. What did he do right, other than letting Osuna close?
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