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The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread

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Mehar
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#281 » by Mehar » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:42 am

cram wrote:Anyone betting on a fire sale this summer?


If this team is mediocre with no hope for meaningful baseball in September- i can see a fire sale. This team will most likely lose Donaldson in a couple of years- because i just do not forsee the Jays matching the money a team like the Yankees or someone else can throw at him. So, the time might be right to sell high on him next year as well, if the team struggles and is mediorce.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#282 » by phillipmike » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:02 pm

sharmaraps wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
sharmaraps wrote:Shatkins want to start a new era of blue jays baseball. I think they have 0 interest in trying to win a world series with a roster that has been mostly constructed by the AA era. They aren't dumb enough to trade our pitching away because they know how tough getting good pitching can be but offensively they already have EE and Joey out the door. I guess as Jays fans we will have to wait a couple years to see the playoffs again.


What in the world are your talking about?


What I'm saying is that Shapiro and Atkins (Shatkins) want to build these Jays with their own players. They don't want anything to do with players that AA brought in.


Do you even know what you are talking about?

2016 Jays
C: Martin
1B: Smoak
2B: Travis
SS: Tulo
3B: Donaldson
RF: Bautista
CF: Pillar
LF: Saunders
DH: EE

Barney, Goins, Thole, Zeke, Navarro, Upton

Stroman
Estrada
Happ
Sanchez
Dickey
Liriano

Osuna, Cecil, Chavez, Biagini, Grilli, Floyd, Storen, Morales, Feldman, Benoit

Bold are the different players from AA's 2015 team. The starting lineup is the same. The rotation is the same, he brought back Estrada and signed Happ who was on the 2014 team who was a guy AA was looking to bring back during the 2015 trade deadline if they missed out on Price. Shapiro and Atkins also brought back guys like Navarro and Chavez also former Jays who AA brought in.

So to start the 2016 Shapiro and Atkins only had 4 new players on the 25 man roster that AA didnt bring in previously and that was all in the pen Biagini, Floyd, Storen and Morales. And during the season they added Liriano, Grilli, Benoit, Feldman Upton and former Jay Navarro.

AA must have done something right if a new FO ONLY MADE 6 CHANGES. Let me say that again 6 CHANGES TO THE 25 MAN ROSTER and 2 of them were former Jays in Happ and Chavez. Even the 2016 WS Series KC Royals had more changes; as they had 7.

Looks like they wanted to keep the group together. And so far the Jays have only lost Dickey, Cecil and Thole from "AA's guys" and no one is really cares about 2 of those players. Just spewing your hate about Shapiro and Atkins as they have extended offers to EE, Cecil and Bautista to keep them - you dont make contract offers to guys you want to move off of.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#283 » by Kurtz » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:12 pm

Schad wrote:
Kurtz wrote:Do we not have a solid base of young talent in place too, with Sanchez/Stroman/Osuna/Travis/Pillar?


Sure, but that quartet is outpaced by Boston's young talent, and there's very little behind them when they start to get more expensive, as they will beginning in 2018. Boston doesn't just have a giant pile of guys making peanuts and producing, they also have multiple top prospects in the high minors, and that's after swinging deals for Chris Sale and Drew Pomeranz. The Cubs similarly threw a tonne of resources at Aroldis Chapman, then moved Soler for Wade Davis this offseason, and still have a system with multiple top-end prospects, a bunch of near-ready AAA options (which made it easier to move Soler), and a tonne of depth.

Meanwhile, we have very little in the upper minors (only two of BA's top ten have played above A ball), and any trades we swing would take a major bite out of the system. We have no cover in the event of injury; if any of our starters go down, we're going to be reliant upon waiver wire pickups (Mike Bolsinger, most likely) to fill in the gaps.

Further, the Yankees are probably a year away from joining the party. They're loaded with young talent, and will shed a tonne of money and be big players in free agency next winter. We can't compete with our division mates now or in the near future by simply spending.


Fair enough. And we knew the window was short when AA went all-in a year ago.

However, it seems to me that we have enough bullets in the chamber to take 1 more shot at the can this year. Before the Yankees push their chips in, and before we're forced to deal Donaldson. I didn't expect them to sign any 5-year deals, but how about really opening up the purse strings for the first, and possibly the last time in a while, on shorter-term deals, and giving it one more shot with a veteran squad before we're in for another 5-year rebuild?
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#284 » by Skin Blues » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:30 pm

There's no reason not to spend right now. We have the young core to support a 2 year run, and then things start to get more expensive. Anybody that doesn't think we should make a hard run at it in 2017 will only be satisfied with a perpetual rebuild, which I have no interest in watching. We can't wait until we have the same young core as the Cubs or Red Sox to push all the chips in.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#285 » by Wo1verine » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:33 pm

With all the DH/1B available, rushing to sign Morales probably not the best move looking at it today. Understand why he signed right away.

Wacky market this winter.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#286 » by Al_Oliver » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:56 pm

Skin Blues wrote:There's no reason not to spend right now. We have the young core to support a 2 year run, and then things start to get more expensive. Anybody that doesn't think we should make a hard run at it in 2017 will only be satisfied with a perpetual rebuild, which I have no interest in watching. We can't wait until we have the same young core as the Cubs or Red Sox to push all the chips in.


The young core has question marks everywhere, as does the aging, overpaid veteran one (Donaldson excluded).

Osuna and Sanchez are the only 2 without question marks... Pillar can't hit worth %$*& and is a defensive player only. Travis can't play close to an entire season without a lengthy injury-spell interfering. Even Stroman underwhelmed last season when a breakout was expected.
Martin already looks worse for wear and is in dire need of more rest so he isn't battered heading into September (and hopefully another playoff run in October).
Tulo is also already on the decline.

Let's not pretend the Jays didn't barely sneak into the Wild Card last season. This is not some juggernaut that needs a couple of tweaks here and there. It is a poorly constructed roster that has a strong rotation and an elite 3B and that is about it
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#287 » by Kurtz » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:35 pm

Al_Oliver wrote:Let's not pretend the Jays didn't barely sneak into the Wild Card last season. This is not some juggernaut that needs a couple of tweaks here and there. It is a poorly constructed roster that has a strong rotation and an elite 3B and that is about it


In fairness, advanced stats suggest that Jays were virtually tied with Cleveland as the 2nd best team in the AL East. That's a legit contender who maybe hit a bit of bad luck.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/standings/
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#288 » by Schad » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:19 pm

Skin Blues wrote:There's no reason not to spend right now. We have the young core to support a 2 year run, and then things start to get more expensive. Anybody that doesn't think we should make a hard run at it in 2017 will only be satisfied with a perpetual rebuild, which I have no interest in watching. We can't wait until we have the same young core as the Cubs or Red Sox to push all the chips in.


We are spending money; all indications are that the payroll will jump substantially.

Ee have a group of solid young players, but that doesn't making a push at all costs wise. While anything can happen, all indications are that Boston is simply better than us. They'd be better than us if we re-signed EE and added Reddick/Fowler, too. Throwing all of the chips in the middle when you're most likely beaten just isn't a wise play, not when we're already relying on our starting pitching pulling off another miracle season to be in any form of contention. Not when our two most expensive players are already heading toward being liabilities rather than assets. And not when our recipe for success last year wasn't the big, splashy signings that some wanted, but rather working the margins to assemble the rotation that carried us.

The smart play, IMO, is what we're doing: add to the roster, and the payroll, but maintain enough flexibility that we can pivot if need be.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#289 » by Schad » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:27 pm

Kurtz wrote:In fairness, advanced stats suggest that Jays were virtually tied with Cleveland as the 2nd best team in the AL East. That's a legit contender who maybe hit a bit of bad luck.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/standings/


Miles back of the Red Sox, though. Which is part of the problem: even if we were to repeat as the 2nd-best team in the AL, we'd be looking at another coin flip game.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#290 » by cram » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:45 pm

Schad is wearing a Red Sox hat and jersey right now.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#291 » by Al_Oliver » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:27 pm

cram wrote:Schad is wearing a Red Sox hat and jersey right now.


Why, because he is telling you the truth that you don't wanna hear?
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#292 » by TR50 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:35 pm

Just a clarification I was hoping for...Is Donaldson arb eligible after this year, or is he straight into FA?
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#293 » by Schad » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:43 pm

TR50 wrote:Just a clarification I was hoping for...Is Donaldson arb eligible after this year, or is he straight into FA?


One more year of arb, FA in the winter of 2018.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#294 » by ldnk » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:01 pm

Schad wrote:
TR50 wrote:Just a clarification I was hoping for...Is Donaldson arb eligible after this year, or is he straight into FA?


One more year of arb, FA in the winter of 2018.


Although he signed a 2-year deal so he's making 17M next year and doesn't go to arbitration. So his next deal will be one of those 30 million dollar mega deals.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#295 » by TR50 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:01 pm

Schad wrote:
TR50 wrote:Just a clarification I was hoping for...Is Donaldson arb eligible after this year, or is he straight into FA?


One more year of arb, FA in the winter of 2018.


Thanks Schad.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#296 » by Schad » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:09 pm

ldnk wrote:Although he signed a 2-year deal so he's making 17M next year and doesn't go to arbitration. So his next deal will be one of those 30 million dollar mega deals.


He has an arb year after that, actually. Unusually, we bought out two years of arb, but not the final one.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#297 » by BramptonYute » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:13 pm

ldnk wrote:
Schad wrote:
TR50 wrote:Just a clarification I was hoping for...Is Donaldson arb eligible after this year, or is he straight into FA?


One more year of arb, FA in the winter of 2018.


Although he signed a 2-year deal so he's making 17M next year and doesn't go to arbitration. So his next deal will be one of those 30 million dollar mega deals.

so we're looking 6-7 years at 180-200 mill? Jheeze, uhh, i'd rather not.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#298 » by cram » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:43 pm

Al_Oliver wrote:
cram wrote:Schad is wearing a Red Sox hat and jersey right now.


Why, because he is telling you the truth that you don't wanna hear?


There's a reason they play the games. Don't assume Boston is a lock to win the AL.

If we packed up our toys and went home every time another team fielded a theoretically great team, then we'd never ever go for it in anything but "down years" for Boston and NY.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#299 » by sharmaraps » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:50 pm

phillipmike wrote:
sharmaraps wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
What in the world are your talking about?


What I'm saying is that Shapiro and Atkins (Shatkins) want to build these Jays with their own players. They don't want anything to do with players that AA brought in.


Do you even know what you are talking about?

2016 Jays
C: Martin
1B: Smoak
2B: Travis
SS: Tulo
3B: Donaldson
RF: Bautista
CF: Pillar
LF: Saunders
DH: EE

Barney, Goins, Thole, Zeke, Navarro, Upton

Stroman
Estrada
Happ
Sanchez
Dickey
Liriano

Osuna, Cecil, Chavez, Biagini, Grilli, Floyd, Storen, Morales, Feldman, Benoit

Bold are the different players from AA's 2015 team. The starting lineup is the same. The rotation is the same, he brought back Estrada and signed Happ who was on the 2014 team who was a guy AA was looking to bring back during the 2015 trade deadline if they missed out on Price. Shapiro and Atkins also brought back guys like Navarro and Chavez also former Jays who AA brought in.

So to start the 2016 Shapiro and Atkins only had 4 new players on the 25 man roster that AA didnt bring in previously and that was all in the pen Biagini, Floyd, Storen and Morales. And during the season they added Liriano, Grilli, Benoit, Feldman Upton and former Jay Navarro.

AA must have done something right if a new FO ONLY MADE 6 CHANGES. Let me say that again 6 CHANGES TO THE 25 MAN ROSTER and 2 of them were former Jays in Happ and Chavez. Even the 2016 WS Series KC Royals had more changes; as they had 7.

Looks like they wanted to keep the group together. And so far the Jays have only lost Dickey, Cecil and Thole from "AA's guys" and no one is really cares about 2 of those players. Just spewing your hate about Shapiro and Atkins as they have extended offers to EE, Cecil and Bautista to keep them - you dont make contract offers to guys you want to move off of.


yeah for a one year shot. Now it's break up time after this year it'll be a whole different team. Playoffs 2020 hopefully
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#300 » by DreamTeam09 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:54 pm

cram wrote:
Al_Oliver wrote:
cram wrote:Schad is wearing a Red Sox hat and jersey right now.


Why, because he is telling you the truth that you don't wanna hear?


There's a reason they play the games. Don't assume Boston is a lock to win the AL.

If we packed up our toys and went home every time another team fielded a theoretically great team, then we'd never ever go for it in anything but "down years" for Boston and NY.


Trust you guys sound like raptor fans a few years ago b4 we got good. Draft draft draft, and then when it's time to pay guys and actually compete it's, "Sell sell sell, we aren't winning anyways with lebron or in this case, boston.

Even if we had it your way, in 5yrs ya'all are going to be saying, sell sell sell

We are scared of boston because they have price and sale? I mean i'd love to have those guys on our team but are we really scared of Price who hasn't won a playoff game yet( or has he finally?)
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