The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread

[Fairview4Life]

Shapiro's claim to fame was building a robust organization and tearing down and rebuilding Cleveland into a very good team. Not having his name mentioned once in Moneyball. The Jays need to tear down and rebuild. You can absolutely criticize stuff like not selling guys off a year earlier (and lots of people here did), but that's also tough to do coming off the success years we had and with the ownership we have. We don't really know what mandate there was. Thinking AA would have worked some kind of miracle with the team the way it was built is nonsense though. Other than not doing the Dickey or Marlins trades and maybe waiting a year, I definitely wouldn't trade the two ALCS years away. But it also doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that AA painted the franchise into a corner. You can love those teams and what AA built while still realizing that we have to go through some pain now to recover from them.

[Schad]

Exactly. I've said before, and I'll say again: despite the missteps, it's hard to argue against the two ALCS appearances (though Shapiro does deserve credit for the second, given that we shored up a very shaky pitching staff on the cheap, because AA had spent most of the budget). But everyone who watched those teams knew that we'd sold the farm for them; it was utterly unsustainable, and if you doubt that, look back to all of the threads circa 2016 of people stating that it was utterly unsustainable.

Also, again, at the beginning of the offseason you could have pretty well recreated the 2016 team with no difficulty whatsoever. Keep Martin and Tulo. Hand a cheap deal to Bautista. Trade just about nothing for Encarnacion. Sign Donaldson to a one-year deal. Sign Saunders for basically nothing. Retain Estrada for little, sign Dickey, sign Happ. But you wouldn't do that, because that team would be awful. Worse than our team now in most respects, because most of those players and old and not good at baseball. It's not Shapiro's fault that they are old and not good at baseball, it's the natural result of having the oldest team in the sport at a time when players age out of their prime earlier than they once did.

[ratul]

Wow you guys have deluded yourself into taking a perennial loser (Shapiro) over a more consistent winner (double AA). I guess let’s say a toast to three more years of being fourth in the AL east and with a team no one cares about! Yay!

[ratul]

Wherever Shapiro goes, his draft record is spotty, his performance is spotty and attendance takes a giant deuce down the drain. But yeah, it's cleveland's fault - and moneyball told us otherwise!

Our drafting over the past three years is far better than our drafting over AA's last three years, and that's despite some real misses.

Nonsense. Shapiro is a below average drafter. Don’t hold your breath. Our best draft prospect is vladd’s kid. And guess who got him? It sure wasn’t mark shiiitpiro

[ratul]

Exactly. I've said before, and I'll say again: despite the missteps, it's hard to argue against the two ALCS appearances (though Shapiro does deserve credit for the second, given that we shored up a very shaky pitching staff on the cheap, because AA had spent most of the budget). But everyone who watched those teams knew that we'd sold the farm for them; it was utterly unsustainable, and if you doubt that, look back to all of the threads circa 2016 of people stating that it was utterly unsustainable.

Also, again, at the beginning of the offseason you could have pretty well recreated the 2016 team with no difficulty whatsoever. Keep Martin and Tulo. Hand a cheap deal to Bautista. Trade just about nothing for Encarnacion. Sign Donaldson to a one-year deal. Sign Saunders for basically nothing. Retain Estrada for little, sign Dickey, sign Happ. But you wouldn't do that, because that team would be awful. Worse than our team now in most respects, because most of those players and old and not good at baseball. It's not Shapiro's fault that they are old and not good at baseball, it's the natural result of having the oldest team in the sport at a time when players age out of their prime earlier than they once did.

Come on pal, you are happy to give undeserved credit to Shapiro whilst taking deserved credit from double AA. It’s rose coloured glasses at best, but utter delusion for the most part.

[Fairview4Life]

Wherever Shapiro goes, his draft record is spotty, his performance is spotty and attendance takes a giant deuce down the drain. But yeah, it's cleveland's fault - and moneyball told us otherwise!

Our drafting over the past three years is far better than our drafting over AA's last three years, and that's despite some real misses.

Nonsense. Shapiro is a below average drafter. Don’t hold your breath. Our best draft prospect is vladd’s kid. And guess who got him? It sure wasn’t mark shiiitpiro

Vlad Jr wasn't drafted. And for Christ's sake, pick either AA or double A. Double AA is AAAA.

[C Court]

Please fire shapiro

First you claim that Raptors fans are among the worst/quietest in the NBA and now you want Shapiro fired. Not sure you see the same things most of us see.

Back when AA made his big moves, most of us here foresaw the future where the Jays by 2018 and beyond would be hamstrung with some very bad albatross contracts and a depleted farm system. We were spot on.

That was the doing of AA. Regardless of who was/is running the Jays, they would be in a position of being non-competitive at this point. If AA was here now, you would be calling for him to be fired too.

Shapiro is rebuilding (probably a year late in hindsight) and he appears to be on the right track. So firing him now doesn’t make sense.

[ratul]

Please fire shapiro

First you claim that Raptors fans are among the worst/quietest in the NBA and now you want Shapiro fired. Not sure you see the same things most of us see.

Back when AA made his big moves, most of us here foresaw the future where the Jays by 2018 and beyond would be hamstrung with some very bad albatross contracts and a depleted farm system. We were spot on.

That was the doing of AA. Regardless of who was/is running the Jays, they would be in a position of being non-competitive at this point. If AA was here now, you would be calling for him to be fired too.

Shapiro is rebuilding (probably a year late in hindsight) and he appears to be on the right track. So firing him now doesn’t make sense.

I would say the evidence holds up. On the raps, numerous people have commented on the sluggishensss of the fans. It has picked up but I assure you, I only note what I see. This has corresponded with a huge increase In prices (fine) a dubious in game team who doesn’t call the game well and of course, a slew of new players. Maybe this will change, but just because you don’t like what I am telling you doesn’t make it untrue.

As for the Jays, again the facts stand. We have come to accept mediocrity from a guy who can’t draft and from a gm who couldn’t have been run out of Boston faster. Attendance has plummeted and fans aren’t waiting around. Maybe you are. But it is the same logic that led us to hold on to ricciardi and BC for too long.

Double A was a beast at drafting and his team also happened to make the playoffs last year. You could say he screwed us, but this is a great way for the current management to deflect from their sheer incompetence. And yeah, our biggest hope is a kid A squared signed when the kid was 16.

And great you saw the future on how we would suck. You can also be one of the dwindling few and aggressively narrow minded to accept it.

[C Court]

Please fire shapiro

First you claim that Raptors fans are among the worst/quietest in the NBA and now you want Shapiro fired. Not sure you see the same things most of us see.

Back when AA made his big moves, most of us here foresaw the future where the Jays by 2018 and beyond would be hamstrung with some very bad albatross contracts and a depleted farm system. We were spot on.

That was the doing of AA. Regardless of who was/is running the Jays, they would be in a position of being non-competitive at this point. If AA was here now, you would be calling for him to be fired too.

Shapiro is rebuilding (probably a year late in hindsight) and he appears to be on the right track. So firing him now doesn’t make sense.

I would say the evidence holds up. On the raps, numerous people have commented on the sluggishensss of the fans. It has picked up but I assure you, I only note what I see. This has corresponded with a huge increase In prices (fine) a dubious in game team who doesn’t call the game well and of course, a slew of new players. Maybe this will change, but just because you don’t like what I am telling you doesn’t make it untrue.

As for the Jays, again the facts stand. We have come to accept mediocrity from a guy who can’t draft and from a gm who couldn’t have been run out of Boston faster. Attendance has plummeted and fans aren’t waiting around. Maybe you are. But it is the same logic that led us to hold on to ricciardi and BC for too long.

Double A was a beast at drafting and his team also happened to make the playoffs last year. You could say he screwed us, but this is a great way for the current management to deflect from their sheer incompetence. And yeah, our biggest hope is a kid A squared signed when the kid was 16.

And great you saw the future on how we would suck. You can also be one of the dwindling few and aggressively narrow minded to accept it.

Your hyperbole is amusing, but that's what blowhards do.

1. Hard to take you seriously when you give credit to AA for the Braves making the playoffs last year.

2. Your whining about Raps fans is bogus and not true. Visiting players and broadcasters all rave about Raptors fans.

3. Shapiro's Indians team (core still there) won 91 games in 2013, 94 games in 2016 and 91 games in 2018. They also handily beat the Jays team that AA built in the 2016 playoffs.

4. No one besides you thinks AA is a beast at drafting. He drafted just ONE decent position player in the majors today in Pillar - who is a middle of the road guy. He had more success with pitchers, but none have really turned yet become elite performers.

[-MetA4-]

Double A was a beast at drafting and his team also happened to make the playoffs last year.

GM's are barely if at all involved in "drafting" outside of the first round or two in baseball. The fact that you think that AA "drafted" Kevin Pillar...in the 32nd round on the third day of the draft wherein picks are made within seconds of one another, is comical LOL. He probably wasn't even in the room when that pick was made. Not only that, but there is no chance in hell he ever even saw Kevin Pillar play a single game.

Also; just LOL @ AA "leading" the Braves to the playoffs with a roster that consisted of virtually no players that he brought in. If you are going to try and sell a **** baseball take, at least make it somewhat consistent with reality. The funny thing about this whole AA thing is that Braves fans in general are pretty annoyed that they didn't do enough to improve the team this offseason. They made the playoffs with a young team and still hold a strong farm system...why didn't AA the "deal maker" push for someone like Harper or Machado who would line up perfectly with their current and future core?

[C Court]

The other thing about AA's drafting record is that while I was upset with him trading many of the Jays' top prospects, looking back now we see that virtually none of those traded picks have amounted to much at the major league level.

[Schad]

Double A was a beast at drafting and his team also happened to make the playoffs last year.

GM's are barely if at all involved in "drafting" outside of the first round or two in baseball. The fact that you think that AA "drafted" Kevin Pillar...in the 32nd round on the third day of the draft wherein picks are made within seconds of one another, is comical LOL. He probably wasn't even in the room when that pick was made. Not only that, but there is no chance in hell he ever even saw Kevin Pillar play a single game.

I feel obligated to again post the oral history of the Cards' 2009 draft, which details how the sausage gets made.

https://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/oral-history-of-st-louis-cardinals-2009-draft-class-060514

In the 21st round, the Cardinals chose an ex-shortstop named Trevor Rosenthal who had impressed another scout for about three seconds.

Luhnow: Rosenthal was a position player at Cowley County Community College. Our area scout was Aaron Looper, who we hired because we thought he would show a good eye for pitchers. And he has. Because Rosenthal wasn’t throwing 99 then. When you get to the 21st round, you really have to trust your scouts.

Aaron Looper: So this is kind of a cool story. Trevor didn’t start pitching until late in the season. I heard through the grapevine there was this kid, but I didn’t see him until a regional tournament, maybe three weeks before the draft.

I had seen him the previous fall, actually, but he didn’t stand out as a professional prospect. When I saw him in the spring, he had a frame that you knew was going to fill out, and he was a decent athlete. He did have good velocity, but what stood out to me was his demeanor on the mound, how he just went after guys even with his limited experience. He did get his fastball up to 94, which is good.

The Cardinals have always invited their scouts to the draft, and this was my third. At the draft, we all get three “gut feel” stickers, and even though I’d seen Rosenthal pitch just one inning, I had that feeling. So I used one of my stickers on him; “Yeah,” I said, “the kid from Cowley County. Rosenthal.” I didn’t know if he could throw a breaking ball, but I knew he could throw strikes.

[ratul]

First you claim that Raptors fans are among the worst/quietest in the NBA and now you want Shapiro fired. Not sure you see the same things most of us see.

Back when AA made his big moves, most of us here foresaw the future where the Jays by 2018 and beyond would be hamstrung with some very bad albatross contracts and a depleted farm system. We were spot on.

That was the doing of AA. Regardless of who was/is running the Jays, they would be in a position of being non-competitive at this point. If AA was here now, you would be calling for him to be fired too.

Shapiro is rebuilding (probably a year late in hindsight) and he appears to be on the right track. So firing him now doesn’t make sense.

I would say the evidence holds up. On the raps, numerous people have commented on the sluggishensss of the fans. It has picked up but I assure you, I only note what I see. This has corresponded with a huge increase In prices (fine) a dubious in game team who doesn’t call the game well and of course, a slew of new players. Maybe this will change, but just because you don’t like what I am telling you doesn’t make it untrue.

As for the Jays, again the facts stand. We have come to accept mediocrity from a guy who can’t draft and from a gm who couldn’t have been run out of Boston faster. Attendance has plummeted and fans aren’t waiting around. Maybe you are. But it is the same logic that led us to hold on to ricciardi and BC for too long.

Double A was a beast at drafting and his team also happened to make the playoffs last year. You could say he screwed us, but this is a great way for the current management to deflect from their sheer incompetence. And yeah, our biggest hope is a kid A squared signed when the kid was 16.

And great you saw the future on how we would suck. You can also be one of the dwindling few and aggressively narrow minded to accept it.

Your hyperbole is amusing, but that's what blowhards do.

1. Hard to take you seriously when you give credit to AA for the Braves making the playoffs last year.

2. Your whining about Raps fans is bogus and not true. Visiting players and broadcasters all rave about Raptors fans.

3. Shapiro's Indians team (core still there) won 91 games in 2013, 94 games in 2016 and 91 games in 2018. They also handily beat the Jays team that AA built in the 2016 playoffs.

4. No one besides you thinks AA is a beast at drafting. He drafted just ONE decent position player in the majors today in Pillar - who is a middle of the road guy. He had more success with pitchers, but none have really turned yet become elite performers.

Um, huh?
1. Double A took the Jays to the ALCS, then helped the Dodgers to the World Series and then the Braves to the playoffs - in CONSECUTIVE years. To suggest he didn't have anything to do with this is just kind of random - the burden of proof is demonstrably on you - otherwise, it's just kind of garbage.

2. Go to a game - see how you feel - or listen to commentators who comment on our weak crowd recently. It has changed recently but remember, it costs 200 bucks at least to get a halfway ok seat.

3. Shapiro was not GM of those amazing Indians teams in 2016 or 2018. But even if you give him 2016, you also then have to give Double A 2016 for the Jays - plus his performance after that. You can't have it both ways - which is to attribute success to Shapiro but not the same to double A - and when you apply it fairly, double A's record is just flat out better.

4. Um, you're factually misguided. AA drafted Osuna, Stroman, Sanchez, Vladdie Junior and Pillar. You could also include Bryant and Syndegaard. I am pretty sure that is more than one decent position player. Facts may help.

[ratul]

Double A was a beast at drafting and his team also happened to make the playoffs last year.

GM's are barely if at all involved in "drafting" outside of the first round or two in baseball. The fact that you think that AA "drafted" Kevin Pillar...in the 32nd round on the third day of the draft wherein picks are made within seconds of one another, is comical LOL. He probably wasn't even in the room when that pick was made. Not only that, but there is no chance in hell he ever even saw Kevin Pillar play a single game.

Also; just LOL @ AA "leading" the Braves to the playoffs with a roster that consisted of virtually no players that he brought in. If you are going to try and sell a **** baseball take, at least make it somewhat consistent with reality. The funny thing about this whole AA thing is that Braves fans in general are pretty annoyed that they didn't do enough to improve the team this offseason. They made the playoffs with a young team and still hold a strong farm system...why didn't AA the "deal maker" push for someone like Harper or Machado who would line up perfectly with their current and future core?

Prove it. Otherwise it's just you making stuff up. To suggest a GM is not responsible, despite help from scouts, on who they draft, is silly. The buck stops with him. And he proved considerable success in drafting through all rounds. However, even if your claim on Pillar is right, despite being groundless, AA drafted Osuna, Stroman, Sanchez, Vladdie Junior and of course Pillar. You could also include Bryant and Syndegaard. That's a damn impressive draft record.

Double A led the Jays to two ALCS in two years, then helped the dodgers to the world series and turned the braves team from a 72 win team to the playoffs. To suggest he isn't a winner isn't particularly based on facts but rather pedagogy or bias.

[Schad]

Um, huh?
1. Double A took the Jays to the ALCS, then helped the Dodgers to the World Series and then the Braves to the playoffs - in CONSECUTIVE years. To suggest he didn't have anything to do with this is just kind of random - the burden of proof is demonstrably on you - otherwise, it's just kind of garbage.

I posted the **** transaction log for his tenure with the Braves. What, are you arguing that his sheer force of leadership made them a playoff team? Was it the league minimum signing of Peter Bourjos, who had less than 60 PAs? The scintillating trade for Preston Tucker? Acquiring Charlie Culberson in a massive salary exchange was a good move, but not a season making one. He just inherited a lot of talent. You're simultaneously arguing that AA deserves the credit for the Braves making the playoffs, after he made no moves of any significance, while suggesting that Shapiro deserves none for the 2016 playoff appearance, when his regime made more significant moves to bolster the team.

And giving him credit for the Dodgers, where he was playing second fiddle and they were already extremely good, is laughable.

The burden of proof is on you at this point to demonstrate that you're not huffing paint fumes, frankly.

2. Go to a game - see how you feel - or listen to commentators who comment on our weak crowd recently. It has changed recently but remember, it costs 200 bucks at least to get a halfway ok seat.

This is beyond inane. You're blaming the president for the fact that we have fairweather fans, and have had fairweather fans for decades.

The 2016 and 2017 teams posted the highest attendance figures the team has enjoyed in over 20 years. Under Shapiro. If that's your benchmark, he should have a **** statue by now.

3. Shapiro was not GM of those amazing Indians teams in 2016 or 2018. But even if you give him 2016, you also then have to give Double A 2016 for the Jays - plus his performance after that. You can't have it both ways - which is to attribute success to Shapiro but not the same to double A - and when you apply it fairly, double A's record is just flat out better.

Check where the players for those amazing Indians teams came from, you probable sniffer of glue.

4. Um, you're factually misguided. AA drafted Osuna, Stroman, Sanchez, Vladdie Junior and Pillar. You could also include Bryant and Syndegaard. I am pretty sure that is more than one decent position player. Facts may help.

OSUNA AND VLAD WERE NOT DRAFTED. I'm not sure how many times people can tell you this. Ye gods, at least have some basic understanding of how baseball works before leaving steaming piles of hot takes all over the damned place like the unholy lovechild and Skip Bayless and an incontinent Great Dane.

Prove it. Otherwise it's just you making stuff up. To suggest a GM is not responsible, despite help from scouts, on who they draft, is silly. The buck stops with him. And he proved considerable success in drafting through all rounds. However, even if your claim on Pillar is right, despite being groundless, AA drafted Osuna, Stroman, Sanchez, Vladdie Junior and of course Pillar. You could also include Bryant and Syndegaard. That's a damn impressive draft record.

Anybody who knows the slightest thing about baseball knows that the scouting director is the person primarily responsible for the players picked in the draft, beyond (though sometimes including) the top round or two. The fact that you are wholly ignorant does not actually bolster your case.

And for god's sake, you cannot include Kris Bryant, a top 50 draft prospect who was drafted in the 18th round. Stop trying to make that happen. It took no great foresight; our club was just the first one that opted to burn a draft pick on what was universally (and correctly) believed to be an unsignable player. If anything, criticize them for wasting a pick on a player who was never going to be a Blue Jay when another very good player who did sign (Adam Eaton) was taken shortly thereafter.

[C Court]

1. Double A took the Jays to the ALCS, then helped the Dodgers to the World Series and then the Braves to the playoffs - in CONSECUTIVE years. To suggest he didn't have anything to do with this is just kind of random - the burden of proof is demonstrably on you - otherwise, it's just kind of garbage.

You wrote a lot of crazy stuff, but this is award winning.

The Dodgers building blocks were there long before AA arrived. And even with that, he was only in LA from early 2016 to 2017 and he was NOT the guy running the team and making the decisions. That was Farhan Zaidi, another Canadian, who started the Dodger rebuild in 2014.

If AA gets full credit for taking the Braves to the playoffs with a roster he inherited, then Shapiro gets full credit for taking the Jays to the playoffs in his first season, right?

[phillipmike]

If you are giving AA credit for drafting Kris Bryant and not signing him then you have to give Shapiro credit for drafting and not signing;

Tim Lincecum, Desmond Jennings, Adam Warren, Max Muncy, and more recently Nick Madrigal.

And give Shapiro the players he helped develop as the director of player development from 1993-1998:

Manny Ramirez, Jim Thome, Brian Giles, Jeromy Burnitz, Kenny Lofton, Bartolo Colon, Richie Sexson, Sean Casey etc.

Shapiro was the Player Development Director during Cleveland's world series run in 1995 and 1997. Cleveland made the playoffs in 1996 too.

If you are giving credit to AA for being apart of the Dodgers success as VP of Baseball Ops then you need to give Shapiro credit when he was VP of Baseball Ops for Cleveland from 1998-2001:

Cleveland Indians;
1998 - 1st in the division - Lost in the in the ALCS
1999 - 1st in the division - Lost in the in the ALDS
2000 - 2nd in the division - 90 win team - missed the playoffs by 1 game
2001 - 1st in the division - Lost in the in the ALDS

And you need to give credit to AA when he was the AGM for the Jays:
2006: 2nd in the division - missed the playoffs
2007: 3rd in the division - missed the playoffs
2008: 4th in the division - missed the playoffs
2009 - 4th in the division - missed the playoffs

Becomes even worse if you account for Anthopoulos' time in the Expos front office because they were terrible and the team folded.

In Shapiro's 27 years in a baseball front office he has made the playoffs 9 times, making it to 2 World Series.

In Anthopoulos' 16 years in a baseball front office he has made the playoffs 4 times, making it to 1 World Series.

Not to mention Shapiro was the GM and/or President of the Indians when they drafted, signed or acquired;

C: Yan Gomes
1B: Carlos Santana
2B: Jason Kipnis
SS: Francisco Lindor
3B: Jose Ramirez
OF: Michael Brantley
OF: Lonie Chisenhall
OF: Tyler Naguin

Corey Kluber
Carlos Carrasco
Trevor Bauer
Danny Salzar
Josh Tomlin

Cody Allen
Bryan Shaw
Mike Clevinger

Looks like a World Series contending team. Not to mention;

Bradley Zimmer, Shin Soo Choo, Francisco Mejía, Grady Sizemore, Travis Hafner, Victor Martinez, Asdrubal Cabrera, Coco Crisp, Jhonny Peralta etc.

CC Sabathia, Cliff Lee, Tristian Mackenzie, Drew Pomeranz, Chris Archer etc.

All while operating with a payroll never higher than 90M in Cleveland and his payroll was 20th or lower from 2003 to 2015.

[C Court]

While we are on the topic, I always felt it was odd how quickly AA left the Jays. Sure, there was potential conflict with Shapiro and other issues that would have made the Alex/Mark partnership complicated.

But, at the end of the day, Alex knew it was the perfect time and scenario to leave.

With the bloated contracts, a depleted farm system and aging vets like Bautista - the long term prospects for the Jays were not good. So he chose to get out while he was on top and set himself up for a new opportunity elsewhere. To Alex’s credit, he played his cards beautifully.

[ratul]

1. Double A took the Jays to the ALCS, then helped the Dodgers to the World Series and then the Braves to the playoffs - in CONSECUTIVE years. To suggest he didn't have anything to do with this is just kind of random - the burden of proof is demonstrably on you - otherwise, it's just kind of garbage.

You wrote a lot of crazy stuff, but this is award winning.

The Dodgers building blocks were there long before AA arrived. And even with that, he was only in LA from early 2016 to 2017 and he was NOT the guy running the team and making the decisions. That was Farhan Zaidi, another Canadian, who started the Dodger rebuild in 2014.

If AA gets full credit for taking the Braves to the playoffs with a roster he inherited, then Shapiro gets full credit for taking the Jays to the playoffs in his first season, right?

Garbage. You are picking and choosing which serves you best. Double A has now been in the front office of three winnings teams and general manager twice. While the Jays were fourth last year and the largest attendance drop in the majors.

You can poo poo double AA and big up Shapiro but the only reason the latter is still around is because Rogers gave him a five year contract. Which gives him plenty of time to continue to run the team into the ground.

[phillipmike]

While we are on the topic, I always felt it was odd how quickly AA left the Jays. Sure, there was potential conflict with Shapiro and other issues that would have made the Alex/Mark partnership complicated.

But, at the end of the day, Alex knew it was the perfect time and scenario to leave.

With the bloated contracts, a depleted farm system and aging vets like Bautista - the long term prospects for the Jays were not good. So he chose to get out while he was on top and set himself up for a new opportunity elsewhere. To Alex’s credit, he played his cards beautifully.

Im suspicious as to when he left the Expos too. Left at the right time for the Expos (team folded a year later) and Jays. And waiting for a great opportunity with the Braves... he is an opportunist.