The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread

[Schad]

The only thing I will say (and I'm very much against what AA did and still have MUCH patience for Shatkins..) is that while AA mortgaged everything a few years ago and put us in this hole,,, that I'm not 100% sure the current regime has swapped old assets for full value on the trade market...

Shapiro didn't sign Osuna, but he (they) did trade him for Hector Perez..
Shapiro didn't trade for Donaldson, but he did trade him for Merryweather..
Shapiro did trade Happ for McKinney...
Shapiro did trade post-season-god Pearce for Espinal...

At this stage, Shats had better believe Diaz for Thornton is a BIG win!! LOL (maybe his best deal??)

Seriously, I blame AA for most everything,, and I mostly agree with our current strategy, BUT I'm not 100% sold that we have even burnt it down maximally.... (the whole JD fiasco notwithstanding). Our farm might be "top 4" due to depth/selling a train of mlb'ers,, but I really wish Shatkins could have parlayed our old veterans into a few prospects with higher upside than Forrest Wall (Ronny Brito FTW!). I haven't seen any genius moves or "out front" thinking for a long while... We haven't "cashed in" a thing. And of course most of our predicament has to do with how AA left things,, but darn it,, can we get at least a little creative?? Management's remuneration is substantial. Lets go.

(IFA's have been better than par... so, not mad at all,,, but I just cant say these middling trades {and I'm aware of all the mitigating actors} will translate anywhere other than farm system rankings....)

That's the thing: I think most of the people arguing against ratul agree with this. Shapiro and Atkins erred not by failing to continue the Double AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA era further, but by not moving on from it earlier. Though they may not have been the ones calling the shots there.

[ratul]

Number of Double AAAAAAAAAAaaaaa's teams that posted a positive defensive runs above average: 0. Our year-to-year rankings under him: 23rd, 28th, 25th, 27th, 23rd, 19th.

If he strongly cared about defense, he had a strange way of showing it, given that he assembled a team that (over the totality of his tenure) was the 4th-best offensive team in baseball, and the 3rd-worst defensive team.

Are you sure ? Most of our players were very highly ranked in 2015.

https://sabr.org/sdi/2015-final

I am certain Shapiro doesn’t value it. His teams suck defensively from my understanding.

[Schad]

Are you sure ? Most of our players were very highly ranked in 2015.

https://sabr.org/sdi/2015-final

I am certain Shapiro doesn’t value it. His teams suck defensively from my understanding.

Yeah: 2015 defensive runs above average.

Luckily, being an elite offensive team matters more than being an elite defensive one, and the averageness of the 2015 team's pitching and defense was offset by being absolutely stellar offensively.

[ratul]

Are you sure ? Most of our players were very highly ranked in 2015.

https://sabr.org/sdi/2015-final

I am certain Shapiro doesn’t value it. His teams suck defensively from my understanding.

Yeah: 2015 defensive runs above average.

Luckily, being an elite offensive team matters more than being an elite defensive one, and the averageness of the 2015 team's pitching and defense was offset by being absolutely stellar offensively.

I've looked closely at your link and a couple things stand out

1. 2015 was when the Jays were ranked number one in WAR with the best defensive ranking in 10 years. It also coincides with them making the ALCS. If there was more time to nail defense, maybe they would have made the world series. Interestingly, the Braves went from 12th in defensive ranking in 2017 to first in 2018. Maybe Double-A does care about defence after all.

2. These stats don't entirely square with SABR's stats which determine Gold Gloves and suggests 2015 we had a robust defense with Donaldson, Tulo etc. https://sabr.org/sdi/2015-final

3. The Jays were tied for last this past year in defense with the Orioles according to your link. LAST. The argument that Gurriel and Hernandez are 'elite' players doesn't square with the fact that they are atrocious defensively and Shapiro doesn't value defense the same way.

The big picture question remains - is Shapiro good at his job?
We can answer through a series of Questions and Answers

A. Does he build good defenses? So far, the answer is demonstrably no.
B. Is he a proven winner? So far, he had a winning season in 4/15 seasons in Cleveland and 1/3 with the Jays - so no
C. Is he doing more with less? Again, he doesn't value defense and his farm systems have been consistently been mediocre to below average over the past 20 years.
D. Is he a good drafter? Again, little evidence of this. most of our elite prospects came from Alex
E. Is Shapiro good for attendance? The answer is definitely no. He presided over the Cleveland disaster and of course expecting attendance to get worse for the Jays in 2019. And he is saying to 'Trust the process.'

If anything, this discussion has somewhat enhanced my view that Shapiro needs to go. There is little evidence that he is 'good' and a lot of evidence he is horrible.

And don't get me started on Ben Cherington. https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/boston-red-sox/cherington-stands-ramirez-sandoval

These bozos need to go.

[polo007]

Read on Twitter

DUNEDIN, Fla. – The latest step in the Blue Jays’ massive rebuild got underway here on Saturday afternoon with the opening of Grapefruit League play.

But unless you were among the 5,040 at Dunedin Stadium on a hot Florida afternoon, you had no way of seeing it.

Same goes for Sunday’s game in Sarasota where the Jays will face the Baltimore Orioles, a game notable because it is the spring debut of one Vlad Guerrero Jr., the top-rated prospect in all of baseball.

In fact, it’s the same story for the majority of the team’s action this exhibition season.

You can thank the Jays corporate brother for this as Rogers Sportsnet has cut back significantly on its commitment and expense to the Jays’ 34-game exhibition season.

The network will produce only two games from Florida and show eight others, picking up the feed from the other teams’ broadcasts in those cases. For example, Monday afternoon’s game against the New York Yankees will be the first to air from this pre-season. But instead of Buck Martinez and and Pat Tabler, you’ll hear the voices of the Bronx Bomber broadcasters on the YES network.

It’s worth noting that you can catch the Jays radio crew of Ben Wagner and Mike Wilner call all of the games, either on sportsnet.ca or on the flagship radio station, The Fan 590. That’s small consolation for those keen on seeing game action.

[SharoneWright]

Monday afternoon’s game against the New York Yankees will be the first to air from this pre-season. But instead of Buck Martinez and and Pat Tabler, you’ll hear the voices of the Bronx Bomber broadcasters on the YES network.

Thank the Spaghetti Monster.

[Lukeem]

Read on Twitter

DUNEDIN, Fla. – The latest step in the Blue Jays’ massive rebuild got underway here on Saturday afternoon with the opening of Grapefruit League play.

But unless you were among the 5,040 at Dunedin Stadium on a hot Florida afternoon, you had no way of seeing it.

Same goes for Sunday’s game in Sarasota where the Jays will face the Baltimore Orioles, a game notable because it is the spring debut of one Vlad Guerrero Jr., the top-rated prospect in all of baseball.

In fact, it’s the same story for the majority of the team’s action this exhibition season.

You can thank the Jays corporate brother for this as Rogers Sportsnet has cut back significantly on its commitment and expense to the Jays’ 34-game exhibition season.

The network will produce only two games from Florida and show eight others, picking up the feed from the other teams’ broadcasts in those cases. For example, Monday afternoon’s game against the New York Yankees will be the first to air from this pre-season. But instead of Buck Martinez and and Pat Tabler, you’ll hear the voices of the Bronx Bomber broadcasters on the YES network.

It’s worth noting that you can catch the Jays radio crew of Ben Wagner and Mike Wilner call all of the games, either on sportsnet.ca or on the flagship radio station, The Fan 590. That’s small consolation for those keen on seeing game action.

I really hope opposing broadcasters rip our management every chance they get for being dishonest pieces of crap for their management of players - I hope Fans tune in to watch vlad and tune out When the season starts and the jays continue the facade of holding back a player that has earned his opportunity more than anyone else they do field in this dumpster fire dog and pony show Shapiro and Atkins are putting on

[G-Mac]

Read on Twitter

DUNEDIN, Fla. – The latest step in the Blue Jays’ massive rebuild got underway here on Saturday afternoon with the opening of Grapefruit League play.

But unless you were among the 5,040 at Dunedin Stadium on a hot Florida afternoon, you had no way of seeing it.

Same goes for Sunday’s game in Sarasota where the Jays will face the Baltimore Orioles, a game notable because it is the spring debut of one Vlad Guerrero Jr., the top-rated prospect in all of baseball.

In fact, it’s the same story for the majority of the team’s action this exhibition season.

You can thank the Jays corporate brother for this as Rogers Sportsnet has cut back significantly on its commitment and expense to the Jays’ 34-game exhibition season.

The network will produce only two games from Florida and show eight others, picking up the feed from the other teams’ broadcasts in those cases. For example, Monday afternoon’s game against the New York Yankees will be the first to air from this pre-season. But instead of Buck Martinez and and Pat Tabler, you’ll hear the voices of the Bronx Bomber broadcasters on the YES network.

It’s worth noting that you can catch the Jays radio crew of Ben Wagner and Mike Wilner call all of the games, either on sportsnet.ca or on the flagship radio station, The Fan 590. That’s small consolation for those keen on seeing game action.

I really hope opposing broadcasters rip our management every chance they get for being dishonest pieces of crap for their management of players - I hope Fans tune in to watch vlad and tune out When the season starts and the jays continue the facade of holding back a player that has earned his opportunity more than anyone else they do field in this dumpster fire dog and pony show Shapiro and Atkins are putting on

You need to read some of Schad's posts. I essentially use this website just to read his opinions. Holding this player in the minors for three weeks keeps him on the team for a full additional year in his prime years. Based on the current format of arbitration, you do this no question. Is it under the guise of him needing to work on defence? yes, but every single team in the majors would do the exact same thing right now with this player. There is no need to blast the FO. The only reason other front offices would say anything bad is because they want him a free agent a year earlier. There is nothing Vlad Jr. can do to start in the majors this year, it's a business, and the team is operating within the parameters currently set.

In my humble opinion, there needs to be a massive restructuring of how players are compensated. It is broken when there is basically an obligation to overpay old players for 7 years when their productivity only deserves the financial compensation for 2-3 years. Guys are productive for years and paid limited funds. Yes, you need to share revenue with players. But players need to be rewarded for their play when they are more productive (their younger years). The blue Jays being noble and bringing up Vlad jr to start the season will not change anything, and it shouldn't have to be at the expense of the blue Jays and their fan base even if something were to change. There needs to be a league wide change in compensation.

I also hate long contracts, love that the NBA is arund 5 year maxes now. Keeps guys playing hard, but they still get paid a ton of money.

[Lukeem]

Read on Twitter

I really hope opposing broadcasters rip our management every chance they get for being dishonest pieces of crap for their management of players - I hope Fans tune in to watch vlad and tune out When the season starts and the jays continue the facade of holding back a player that has earned his opportunity more than anyone else they do field in this dumpster fire dog and pony show Shapiro and Atkins are putting on

You need to read some of Schad's posts. I essentially use this website just to read his opinions. Holding this player in the minors for three weeks keeps him on the team for a full additional year in his prime years. Based on the current format of arbitration, you do this no question. Is it under the guise of him needing to work on defence? yes, but every single team in the majors would do the exact same thing right now with this player. There is no need to blast the FO. The only reason other front offices would say anything bad is because they want him a free agent a year earlier. There is nothing Vlad Jr. can do to start in the majors this year, it's a business, and the team is operating within the parameters currently set.

In my humble opinion, there needs to be a massive restructuring of how players are compensated. It is broken when there is basically an obligation to overpay old players for 7 years when their productivity only deserves the financial compensation for 2-3 years. Guys are productive for years and paid limited funds. Yes, you need to share revenue with players. But players need to be rewarded for their play when they are more productive (their younger years). The blue Jays being noble and bringing up Vlad jr to start the season will not change anything, and it shouldn't have to be at the expense of the blue Jays and their fan base even if something were to change. There needs to be a league wide change in compensation.

I also hate long contracts, love that the NBA is arund 5 year maxes now. Keeps guys playing hard, but they still get paid a ton of money.

I know all of that stuff

But

1) landscape is changing and vlad might be the last super obvious case of this, so the poster franchise for screwing over young players

2) they are being dishonest about the way they are doing. Last year calling up a couple handful of players that were less ready than vladdy but saying he is not ready. Terrible beginning to a relationship with who you believe can be a superstar

3) prolonging the end of his first big contract. This one might not matter because if he doesn’t like or trust the front office he won’t resign anyway but if he is a superstar and we have a chance to resign him I’d rather give him a 10 year contract from 25-35 than 26-36

4) jays have enough isssues with ex players and current players they are developing a bad reputation

5) building on 4 their locker room atmosphere could easily turn really **** this year they are better off giving the players every reason to believe the franchise will do right by the players and doing everything they can to be competitive - their current strategy is the opposite of both

6) it’s obvious jays will take some time to rebuild and they should be looking further than vlad just being on his controllable years

7) fans want to see him and you’re fielding a weak team without showcasing the one bright spot

8) you never know what can happen vladdy could have a career ending injury in the minors, or in year 3 of control, or not really hit his stride Till he’s 28. so it’s not worth all the negatives

9) should he not be around the best players and best coaches for as much as possible if you want him developing as much as possible

I think baseball is stupid for creating this stupid situation as well the arbitration process where teams are expected to basically insult current players to sign them for a couple mill cheaper

[Schad]

In my humble opinion, there needs to be a massive restructuring of how players are compensated. It is broken when there is basically an obligation to overpay old players for 7 years when their productivity only deserves the financial compensation for 2-3 years. Guys are productive for years and paid limited funds. Yes, you need to share revenue with players. But players need to be rewarded for their play when they are more productive (their younger years). The blue Jays being noble and bringing up Vlad jr to start the season will not change anything, and it shouldn't have to be at the expense of the blue Jays and their fan base even if something were to change. There needs to be a league wide change in compensation.

Absolutely, and I'm kinda hoping that the Vlad case (and the Acuna case, and the likelihood of a Senzel case) finally tips the scales enough that the MLBPA makes eliminating service time manipulation a priority in the next CBA. It'd be somewhat complicated -- if it's merely reducing the number of games necessary to accrue a single year of service time, it'll only make the problem worse as the Vlads of the world get left down for a larger chunk of the year -- but I've already seen a couple ideas thrown out that could be a basic framework. Haven't had the chance to game it all out, but I kinda like this:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/a-modest-proposal-to-end-service-time-manipulation/

The upshot is that players would reach their arb years (and free agent years) faster in general, which would get the clock moving in terms of player compensation, as well. By expanding the 40-man roster to 50, you'd also likely reduce the constant churn of in-season DFAs, which would be nice; while the waiver system is meant to aid players, by giving them the chance to latch on with a major league club before getting sent down, a lot of players in AAA end up getting DFAed and displaced because injuries necessitate opening a 40-man spot, and if you're the 39th-most important guy on a roster, you're going to spend a fair bit of time bouncing between teams with no particular investment in you, which cannot be easy.

My understanding (somewhat limited, I'm not a hockey guy so there's probably nuance that I'm missing) is that the NHL's system isn't wholly different...players after a certain age accrue service time for the purposes of free agency even if they're in the minors, so there's no incentive to stash them in the AHL to manipulate such.

[The_Hater]

I really hope opposing broadcasters rip our management every chance they get for being dishonest pieces of crap for their management of players - I hope Fans tune in to watch vlad and tune out When the season starts and the jays continue the facade of holding back a player that has earned his opportunity more than anyone else they do field in this dumpster fire dog and pony show Shapiro and Atkins are putting on

You need to read some of Schad's posts. I essentially use this website just to read his opinions. Holding this player in the minors for three weeks keeps him on the team for a full additional year in his prime years. Based on the current format of arbitration, you do this no question. Is it under the guise of him needing to work on defence? yes, but every single team in the majors would do the exact same thing right now with this player. There is no need to blast the FO. The only reason other front offices would say anything bad is because they want him a free agent a year earlier. There is nothing Vlad Jr. can do to start in the majors this year, it's a business, and the team is operating within the parameters currently set.

In my humble opinion, there needs to be a massive restructuring of how players are compensated. It is broken when there is basically an obligation to overpay old players for 7 years when their productivity only deserves the financial compensation for 2-3 years. Guys are productive for years and paid limited funds. Yes, you need to share revenue with players. But players need to be rewarded for their play when they are more productive (their younger years). The blue Jays being noble and bringing up Vlad jr to start the season will not change anything, and it shouldn't have to be at the expense of the blue Jays and their fan base even if something were to change. There needs to be a league wide change in compensation.

I also hate long contracts, love that the NBA is arund 5 year maxes now. Keeps guys playing hard, but they still get paid a ton of money.

I know all of that stuff

But

1) landscape is changing and vlad might be the last super obvious case of this, so the poster franchise for screwing over young players

2) they are being dishonest about the way they are doing. Last year calling up a couple handful of players that were less ready than vladdy but saying he is not ready. Terrible beginning to a relationship with who you believe can be a superstar

3) prolonging the end of his first big contract. This one might not matter because if he doesn’t like or trust the front office he won’t resign anyway but if he is a superstar and we have a chance to resign him I’d rather give him a 10 year contract from 25-35 than 26-36

4) jays have enough isssues with ex players and current players they are developing a bad reputation

5) building on 4 their locker room atmosphere could easily turn really **** this year they are better off giving the players every reason to believe the franchise will do right by the players and doing everything they can to be competitive - their current strategy is the opposite of both

6) it’s obvious jays will take some time to rebuild and they should be looking further than vlad just being on his controllable years

7) fans want to see him and you’re fielding a weak team without showcasing the one bright spot

8) you never know what can happen vladdy could have a career ending injury in the minors, or in year 3 of control, or not really hit his stride Till he’s 28. so it’s not worth all the negatives

9) should he not be around the best players and best coaches for as much as possible if you want him developing as much as possible

I think baseball is stupid for creating this stupid situation as well the arbitration process where teams are expected to basically insult current players to sign them for a couple mill cheaper

If you think 3 weeks is going to screw up Vlade’s development, I don’t know what to say. You should be happy that you have an organization smart enough and forward thinking enough to maximize their young assets like this.

Mike Trout, the best player of his generation, sent to the minors for 3 weeks in 2012. I’m very certain that didn’t stunt his development. Bryce Harper, also sent down for 3 weeks in 2012. That’s why he wasn’t a free agent last off season. MLB clubs, literally all of them, do this exact thing with a huge majority of their top young players because it’s smart business.

[dagger]

I really hope opposing broadcasters rip our management every chance they get for being dishonest pieces of crap for their management of players - I hope Fans tune in to watch vlad and tune out When the season starts and the jays continue the facade of holding back a player that has earned his opportunity more than anyone else they do field in this dumpster fire dog and pony show Shapiro and Atkins are putting on

You need to read some of Schad's posts. I essentially use this website just to read his opinions. Holding this player in the minors for three weeks keeps him on the team for a full additional year in his prime years. Based on the current format of arbitration, you do this no question. Is it under the guise of him needing to work on defence? yes, but every single team in the majors would do the exact same thing right now with this player. There is no need to blast the FO. The only reason other front offices would say anything bad is because they want him a free agent a year earlier. There is nothing Vlad Jr. can do to start in the majors this year, it's a business, and the team is operating within the parameters currently set.

In my humble opinion, there needs to be a massive restructuring of how players are compensated. It is broken when there is basically an obligation to overpay old players for 7 years when their productivity only deserves the financial compensation for 2-3 years. Guys are productive for years and paid limited funds. Yes, you need to share revenue with players. But players need to be rewarded for their play when they are more productive (their younger years). The blue Jays being noble and bringing up Vlad jr to start the season will not change anything, and it shouldn't have to be at the expense of the blue Jays and their fan base even if something were to change. There needs to be a league wide change in compensation.

I also hate long contracts, love that the NBA is arund 5 year maxes now. Keeps guys playing hard, but they still get paid a ton of money.

I know all of that stuff

But

1) landscape is changing and vlad might be the last super obvious case of this, so the poster franchise for screwing over young players

2) they are being dishonest about the way they are doing. Last year calling up a couple handful of players that were less ready than vladdy but saying he is not ready. Terrible beginning to a relationship with who you believe can be a superstar

3) prolonging the end of his first big contract. This one might not matter because if he doesn’t like or trust the front office he won’t resign anyway but if he is a superstar and we have a chance to resign him I’d rather give him a 10 year contract from 25-35 than 26-36

4) jays have enough isssues with ex players and current players they are developing a bad reputation

5) building on 4 their locker room atmosphere could easily turn really **** this year they are better off giving the players every reason to believe the franchise will do right by the players and doing everything they can to be competitive - their current strategy is the opposite of both

6) it’s obvious jays will take some time to rebuild and they should be looking further than vlad just being on his controllable years

7) fans want to see him and you’re fielding a weak team without showcasing the one bright spot

8) you never know what can happen vladdy could have a career ending injury in the minors, or in year 3 of control, or not really hit his stride Till he’s 28. so it’s not worth all the negatives

9) should he not be around the best players and best coaches for as much as possible if you want him developing as much as possible

I think baseball is stupid for creating this stupid situation as well the arbitration process where teams are expected to basically insult current players to sign them for a couple mill cheaper

I don't have time to answer all of these points, but on #4 and #5, I don't see evidence of last damage. What Tulo thinks is not indicative of what everyone thinks. Issues like winning, and taxes, and maybe the foreignness of playing in Toronto will dog any admin running this team unless and until Toronto is perceived as a serious playoff contender, i.e. until the cycle turns. Toronto has been on no-trade lists for several years, even when the team was good, so some players, given the chance to have partial no-trade lists, often put Toronto on them reflexively. It's something for management and ownership to work on, the way the Raptors have at least partly changed how Toronto is received in the NBA universe. With there Jays, I find it noteworthy that they can still come to amicable agreements with most of their players, including the Boras-represented Aaron Sanchez, so lets not assume that the way this management operates - as opposed to where the team is in the rebuilding cycle - is poisoning relationships.

As for point #6, do you seriously believe they aren't?

[Lukeem]

You need to read some of Schad's posts. I essentially use this website just to read his opinions. Holding this player in the minors for three weeks keeps him on the team for a full additional year in his prime years. Based on the current format of arbitration, you do this no question. Is it under the guise of him needing to work on defence? yes, but every single team in the majors would do the exact same thing right now with this player. There is no need to blast the FO. The only reason other front offices would say anything bad is because they want him a free agent a year earlier. There is nothing Vlad Jr. can do to start in the majors this year, it's a business, and the team is operating within the parameters currently set.

In my humble opinion, there needs to be a massive restructuring of how players are compensated. It is broken when there is basically an obligation to overpay old players for 7 years when their productivity only deserves the financial compensation for 2-3 years. Guys are productive for years and paid limited funds. Yes, you need to share revenue with players. But players need to be rewarded for their play when they are more productive (their younger years). The blue Jays being noble and bringing up Vlad jr to start the season will not change anything, and it shouldn't have to be at the expense of the blue Jays and their fan base even if something were to change. There needs to be a league wide change in compensation.

I also hate long contracts, love that the NBA is arund 5 year maxes now. Keeps guys playing hard, but they still get paid a ton of money.

I know all of that stuff

But

1) landscape is changing and vlad might be the last super obvious case of this, so the poster franchise for screwing over young players

2) they are being dishonest about the way they are doing. Last year calling up a couple handful of players that were less ready than vladdy but saying he is not ready. Terrible beginning to a relationship with who you believe can be a superstar

3) prolonging the end of his first big contract. This one might not matter because if he doesn’t like or trust the front office he won’t resign anyway but if he is a superstar and we have a chance to resign him I’d rather give him a 10 year contract from 25-35 than 26-36

4) jays have enough isssues with ex players and current players they are developing a bad reputation

5) building on 4 their locker room atmosphere could easily turn really **** this year they are better off giving the players every reason to believe the franchise will do right by the players and doing everything they can to be competitive - their current strategy is the opposite of both

6) it’s obvious jays will take some time to rebuild and they should be looking further than vlad just being on his controllable years

7) fans want to see him and you’re fielding a weak team without showcasing the one bright spot

8) you never know what can happen vladdy could have a career ending injury in the minors, or in year 3 of control, or not really hit his stride Till he’s 28. so it’s not worth all the negatives

9) should he not be around the best players and best coaches for as much as possible if you want him developing as much as possible

I think baseball is stupid for creating this stupid situation as well the arbitration process where teams are expected to basically insult current players to sign them for a couple mill cheaper

If you think 3 weeks is going to screw up Vlade’s development, I don’t know what to say. You should be happy that you have an organization smart enough and forward thinking enough to maximize their young assets like this.

Mike Trout, the best player of his generation, sent to the minors for 3 weeks in 2012. I’m very certain that didn’t stunt his development. Bryce Harper, also sent down for 3 weeks in 2012. That’s why he wasn’t a free agent last off season. MLB clubs, literally all of them, do this exact thing with a huge majority of their top young players because it’s smart business.

I do not think 3 years will stunt his devlopment. I think having your best coaches and trainers would be better though - that’s pretty obvious

And since you bring up Harper that might be why he’s on a new team now. They’ve talked a lot more about this since trout, like I said if jays are one of the last very obvious teams to do this before I believe the inevitable change comes it does not look great for the organization

[Lukeem]

You need to read some of Schad's posts. I essentially use this website just to read his opinions. Holding this player in the minors for three weeks keeps him on the team for a full additional year in his prime years. Based on the current format of arbitration, you do this no question. Is it under the guise of him needing to work on defence? yes, but every single team in the majors would do the exact same thing right now with this player. There is no need to blast the FO. The only reason other front offices would say anything bad is because they want him a free agent a year earlier. There is nothing Vlad Jr. can do to start in the majors this year, it's a business, and the team is operating within the parameters currently set.

In my humble opinion, there needs to be a massive restructuring of how players are compensated. It is broken when there is basically an obligation to overpay old players for 7 years when their productivity only deserves the financial compensation for 2-3 years. Guys are productive for years and paid limited funds. Yes, you need to share revenue with players. But players need to be rewarded for their play when they are more productive (their younger years). The blue Jays being noble and bringing up Vlad jr to start the season will not change anything, and it shouldn't have to be at the expense of the blue Jays and their fan base even if something were to change. There needs to be a league wide change in compensation.

I also hate long contracts, love that the NBA is arund 5 year maxes now. Keeps guys playing hard, but they still get paid a ton of money.

I know all of that stuff

But

1) landscape is changing and vlad might be the last super obvious case of this, so the poster franchise for screwing over young players

2) they are being dishonest about the way they are doing. Last year calling up a couple handful of players that were less ready than vladdy but saying he is not ready. Terrible beginning to a relationship with who you believe can be a superstar

3) prolonging the end of his first big contract. This one might not matter because if he doesn’t like or trust the front office he won’t resign anyway but if he is a superstar and we have a chance to resign him I’d rather give him a 10 year contract from 25-35 than 26-36

4) jays have enough isssues with ex players and current players they are developing a bad reputation

5) building on 4 their locker room atmosphere could easily turn really **** this year they are better off giving the players every reason to believe the franchise will do right by the players and doing everything they can to be competitive - their current strategy is the opposite of both

6) it’s obvious jays will take some time to rebuild and they should be looking further than vlad just being on his controllable years

7) fans want to see him and you’re fielding a weak team without showcasing the one bright spot

8) you never know what can happen vladdy could have a career ending injury in the minors, or in year 3 of control, or not really hit his stride Till he’s 28. so it’s not worth all the negatives

9) should he not be around the best players and best coaches for as much as possible if you want him developing as much as possible

I think baseball is stupid for creating this stupid situation as well the arbitration process where teams are expected to basically insult current players to sign them for a couple mill cheaper

I don't have time to answer all of these points, but on #4 and #5, I don't see evidence of last damage. What Tulo thinks is not indicative of what everyone thinks. Issues like winning, and taxes, and maybe the foreignness of playing in Toronto will dog any admin running this team unless and until Toronto is perceived as a serious playoff contender, i.e. until the cycle turns. Toronto has been on no-trade lists for several years, even when the team was good, so some players, given the chance to have partial no-trade lists, often put Toronto on them reflexively. It's something for management and ownership to work on, the way the Raptors have at least partly changed how Toronto is received in the NBA universe. With there Jays, I find it noteworthy that they can still come to amicable agreements with most of their players, including the Boras-represented Aaron Sanchez, so lets not assume that the way this management operates - as opposed to where the team is in the rebuilding cycle - is poisoning relationships.

As for point #6, do you seriously believe they aren't?

I don’t think I was clear enough of 6

I mean they should be hooping to resign him after his controllable years. That’s when they will hopefully be building a serious contender

[polo007]

According to Gregor Chisholm, Toronto Blue Jays reporter for MLB.com:

Mark Shapiro pointed to the Phillies TV deal as one reason they were able to spend so much money this offseason. So I asked whether #BlueJays were getting a fair shake in their deal with Sportsnet. Here is his full answer:



Another Rogers related question I asked this morning, is payroll set each year in isolation or are #BlueJays able to get a multi-year commitment from ownership. In other words, can they save money this year and make their budget bigger next year. Shapiro's response:



Also followed up on whether the inability to map out payroll multiple years in advance made the front office's jobs more difficult. Shapiro's response to that. #BlueJays

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[gei]

I'm very much against what AA did and still have MUCH patience for Shatkins

Seriously? The AA years are the only reason anyone is even thinking about the Blue Jays. Those 2 years are well worth 10 years of minor league prospects and rebuilding and whatever nonsense we are likely to see over the next decade. Those 2 years are gave us way more excitement than some minor league prospects that will ultimately result in nothing significant will ever give us.

The AA years made the Jays relevant. By the time Shatkins is gone, the dome will be as empty as it was before AA arrived. I fully expect the "relocation" talk to start again by the end of the 2019 season.

[SharoneWright]

I'm very much against what AA did and still have MUCH patience for Shatkins

Seriously? The AA years are the only reason anyone is even thinking about the Blue Jays. Those 2 years are well worth 10 years of minor league prospects and rebuilding and whatever nonsense we are likely to see over the next decade. Those 2 years are gave us way more excitement than some minor league prospects that will ultimately result in nothing significant will ever give us.

1. The AA years made the Jays relevant. By the time Shatkins is gone, the dome will be as empty as it was before AA arrived. 2. I fully expect the "relocation" talk to start again by the end of the 2019 season.

1. Jays have been WS Champs. Signed Roger Clemens. Had set league-wide attendance records. MLB tapped our President to be their COO a few years back. Meghan Markle even wore (wears?) our cap... Oh, we've been relevant. And regardless of AA's effect, we'll be able to rebound.

2.

[gei]

I'm very much against what AA did and still have MUCH patience for Shatkins

Seriously? The AA years are the only reason anyone is even thinking about the Blue Jays. Those 2 years are well worth 10 years of minor league prospects and rebuilding and whatever nonsense we are likely to see over the next decade. Those 2 years are gave us way more excitement than some minor league prospects that will ultimately result in nothing significant will ever give us.

1. The AA years made the Jays relevant. By the time Shatkins is gone, the dome will be as empty as it was before AA arrived. 2. I fully expect the "relocation" talk to start again by the end of the 2019 season.

1. Jays have been WS Champs. Signed Roger Clemens. Had set league-wide attendance records. MLB tapped our President to be their COO a few years back. Meghan Markle even wore (wears?) our cap... Oh, we've been relevant. And regardless of AA's effect, we'll be able to rebound.

Um... ok. 25 years ago sure.

Even Rogers knows to expect 0 fan interest this year, hence the year-long $5 beer promotion. I'm guessing we'll be fielding crowds of between 5000-7000 people towards the end of the year (and even the beginning, with people focused on the Raptors and Leafs).

Again thank AA that there is any interest in the Jays whatsoever at the moment.

[Fairview4Life]

Even Rogers knows to expect 0 fan interest this year, hence the year-long $5 beer promotion. I'm guessing we'll be fielding crowds of between 5000-7000 people towards the end of the year (and even the beginning, with people focused on the Raptors and Leafs).

Lol, you have no idea what you are talking about. 5-7k fans? Relocation? Even if Vladdy wasn't getting called up in 3 weeks that speculation would be incredibly stupid. The Jays would average more than 5-7k fans if every game was on a Tuesday afternoon. I don't think you realize how many people live in Toronto and go to baseball games.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TOR/attend.shtml

Their lowest attended Skydome year was 2010, and the lowest attended home game that year still had over 10k fans.

[gei]

Even Rogers knows to expect 0 fan interest this year, hence the year-long $5 beer promotion. I'm guessing we'll be fielding crowds of between 5000-7000 people towards the end of the year (and even the beginning, with people focused on the Raptors and Leafs).

Lol, you have no idea what you are talking about. 5-7k fans? Relocation? Even if Vladdy wasn't getting called up in 3 weeks that speculation would be incredibly stupid. The Jays would average more than 5-7k fans if every game was on a Tuesday afternoon. I don't think you realize how many people live in Toronto and go to baseball games.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TOR/attend.shtml

Their lowest attended Skydome year was 2010, and the lowest attended home game that year still had over 10k fans.

Sorry - I've been a Jays fan since the early 90s and live right beside the skydome - I know very well what I'm talking about. Of every hardcore sports fan I know I can't find a single one who is even remotely interested in the team this year.

With interest in the MLB declining in general, and fan attendance down across the league, you can quote me on expecting under 10k fans a game. Heck even the home opener is not sold out - when was the last time that happened?