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The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread

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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#961 » by ratul » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:54 pm

It’s like the JP era because we stink and have a dubious future.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#962 » by Schad » Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:32 pm

The JP era teams generally didn't stink. A few of those teams were genuinely good; the 2006 and 2008 squads were highly competitive but in the wrong place at the wrong time.

They did have a dubious future, but for the reason the Jays long had dubious futures: the mandate was to compete immediately at all times, and consequently the team had difficulty getting high-end talent to push them over the top. The talent base was pretty old, particularly once Snider and Romero flamed out.

And a large part of what made that AAaaaaaaAAA era successful was the unexpected breakout of two players that JP had brought in. That was basically a fluke, but 2015 doesn't happen if Ricciardi doesn't acquire a pair of fringy 3Bs with raw power and a host of question marks.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#963 » by Brinbe » Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:53 pm

Schad wrote:Curious why. The big problem with the JP era is that, while his signings and trades worked out pretty well, our draft and development side was awful and consequently we couldn't get over the hump (though the 2008 team makes the playoffs in many other divisions). With Atkins, the questions are mostly about the signings and trades, while the draft and development stuff has been pretty damned good.

Mostly because it's becoming the same thing with ownership/attendance and the impact that has on our budget and our year to year focus. There's no coherency, which is I guess expected when dealing with a conglomerate like Rogers. We'll see what happens this off-season but the stuff we've been hearing about who/what we've been targeting has me wary.

Either they believe in Shatkins' plan or they don't. Are we rebuilding or going in on win now guys to help spike attendance?
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#964 » by Cyrus » Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:04 pm

Man with Ben Cherington gone, who from Cleveland we can get to replace him ;)
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#965 » by Schad » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:12 pm

Brinbe wrote:Mostly because it's becoming the same thing with ownership/attendance and the impact that has on our budget and our year to year focus. There's no coherency, which is I guess expected when dealing with a conglomerate like Rogers. We'll see what happens this off-season but the stuff we've been hearing about who/what we've been targeting has me wary.

Either they believe in Shatkins' plan or they don't. Are we rebuilding or going in on win now guys to help spike attendance?


Rogers allowed both Riccardi and Anthopolous to increase payroll pretty sharply; it nearly doubled from 2005 to 2008, and then after dialing it back when that failed, they allowed AA to raise it to $120m and later to almost $140m. We'll never spend like the Yankees, but I'm less concerned about spending than I am about the general meddling...they've never demonstrated a willingness to let baseball decisions take the fore, with any of our GMs.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#966 » by Brinbe » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:48 pm

Schad wrote:
Brinbe wrote:Mostly because it's becoming the same thing with ownership/attendance and the impact that has on our budget and our year to year focus. There's no coherency, which is I guess expected when dealing with a conglomerate like Rogers. We'll see what happens this off-season but the stuff we've been hearing about who/what we've been targeting has me wary.

Either they believe in Shatkins' plan or they don't. Are we rebuilding or going in on win now guys to help spike attendance?


Rogers allowed both Riccardi and Anthopolous to increase payroll pretty sharply; it nearly doubled from 2005 to 2008, and then after dialing it back when that failed, they allowed AA to raise it to $120m and later to almost $140m. We'll never spend like the Yankees, but I'm less concerned about spending than I am about the general meddling...they've never demonstrated a willingness to let baseball decisions take the fore, with any of our GMs.

yes, your last concern, the meddling, is my main point and why i said this reminds me of the jp era. my feeling so far this off-season is that they're maybe starting to meddle, especially since shatkins are kinda lame ducks right now. i could totally be wrong, but that's just my feeling on things.

and yeah, the issue isn't spending and never was. i think the general criticism about them spending is valid at times, even jose took shots at them lol, but overblown in the end.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#967 » by Schad » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:53 pm

Brinbe wrote:yes, your last concern, the meddling, is my main point and why i said this reminds me of the jp era. my feeling so far this off-season is that they're maybe starting to meddle, especially since shatkins are kinda lame ducks right now. i could totally be wrong, but that's just my feeling on things.

and yeah, the issue isn't spending and never was. i think the general criticism about them spending is valid at times, even jose took shots at them lol, but overblown in the end.


They meddled with AA as well, unfortunately...it's just something that is part and parcel of a lot of ownership groups (witness the Red Sox going from "spend whatever!" to "well, maybe spend $50m a year less" and vice versa a good three times over the past few years. I hate it, because it makes it impossible to implement sound long-term plans and likely prevented us from rebuilding earlier, but it seems to be inescapable absent a unicorn ownership bid.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#968 » by Tanner » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:15 am

This is the first time since Rogers owned the team that they allowed an intentional tanking. There have been bad teams since 2000 but none that intentionally punted an entire season. The closest comparison might be JP's first season and AA's first season, but in both those of cases the Jays weren't fielding a roster anywhere near as bad as 2019 (not counting the top prospects who came up mid season). Rogers can't possibly expect the team to win in 2020 after approving a scorched earth. I wouldn't expect them to meddle this season. The team is going to spend money this winter because they have a lot of it to spend due to their own designed payroll slashing. Allowing a lameduck president and GM to start a rebuild is bad even by Rogers standards. I'd expect Shapiro to stick around, at least with a modest extension (2-3 years). After that the expectations will change.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#969 » by Schad » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:20 am

And expectations should change, though with eyes open. Grading on the Rogers curve, if they allow us to build up somewhat this season and then more next, without any dumb ultimatums about benchmarks of success, I'd consider that our best-case scenario.
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