Jays Have No Intention of Signing Jose or EE

[KL78192020]

The deal could actually end up being the same with the 4th year club option as long as Edwin performs. Which isn't impossible for him to do

[ldnk]

I think it's unfair and dismissive to refer to Edwin as a DH at this point. He has essentially played 50% of his time in the field over the last 3 seasons.

[Schad]

The deal could actually end up being the same with the 4th year option as long as Edwin performs.

Yeah, but the last thing you want is an option at age 37 on a team that doesn't historically spend big bucks.

Which is the other thing that they oopsed. Cleveland's a great destination for performance reasons, but Edwin also gives up his 10/5 rights, and thus loses all trade protection. If Cleveland experiences a downswing, he'll be on the move with no control over that process.

[Kurtz]

The deal could actually end up being the same with the 4th year option as long as Edwin performs.

Yeah, but the last thing you want is an option at age 37 on a team that doesn't historically spend big bucks.

Which is the other thing that they oopsed. Cleveland's a great destination for performance reasons, but Edwin also gives up his 10/5 rights, and thus loses all trade protection. If Cleveland experiences a downswing, he'll be on the move with no control over that process.

Looking at that roster, can you imagine Cleveland as anything but a contender for the next 3-4 years?

[TR50]

The deal could actually end up being the same with the 4th year option as long as Edwin performs.

Yeah, but the last thing you want is an option at age 37 on a team that doesn't historically spend big bucks.

Which is the other thing that they oopsed. Cleveland's a great destination for performance reasons, but Edwin also gives up his 10/5 rights, and thus loses all trade protection. If Cleveland experiences a downswing, he'll be on the move with no control over that process.

Looking at that roster, can you imagine Cleveland as anything but a contender for the next 3-4 years?

They are definitely a contender. 100%. They were before this as well. They just need to hope that his decline isn't sharp, or looming soon.

[cram]

You can analyze who was right or wrong all you want. At end of day, we're watching Justin Smoak next season and Cleveland gets Eddie on a great deal.

It doesn't matter whose fault...they win, we lose.

[Schad]

Looking at that roster, can you imagine Cleveland as anything but a contender for the next 3-4 years?

It's likely they keep contending, definitely. They've got some difficult decisions to make if their payroll doesn't continue to grow, though; Santana is a free agent after this season, Brantley and much of their 'pen hit FA after 2018.

[BigLeagueChew]

You can analyze who was right or wrong all you want. At end of day, we're watching Justin Smoak next season and Cleveland gets Eddie on a great deal.

It doesn't matter whose fault...they win, we lose.

Have to look at the whole picture not just losing Edwin, particularly when we offered him better than what Cleveland did and he said no to us. We have other players that are free agents or arb eligible coming up that would be very hard to re-sign if we spent most of it on Edwin and Bautista when we already have $40m a year going towards Tulo and Martin.

Pierce will get at bats against lefties over Smoak and even someone like Morales could get more playing time at 1st base since he was behind Hosmer in KC. If we wanted to continue using the DH spot as a rest day for positional players, we could.

[TR50]

Overall I still think this is Edwin/Kinzers fault. The reality is that it affected the Jays too. Lose-lose situation for both, but I don't see fault in Shatkins. Could they have waited? Sure. Is it justifiable that they moved on after Edwin said no? Yes.

[cram]

You can analyze who was right or wrong all you want. At end of day, we're watching Justin Smoak next season and Cleveland gets Eddie on a great deal.

It doesn't matter whose fault...they win, we lose.

Have to look at the whole picture not just losing Edwin, particularly when we offered him better than what Cleveland did and he said no to us. We have other players that are free agents or arb eligible coming up that would be very hard to re-sign if we spent most of it on Edwin and Bautista when we already have $40m a year going towards Tulo and Martin.

Pierce will get at bats against lefties over Smoak and even someone like Morales could get more playing time at 1st base since he was behind Hosmer in KC. If we wanted to continue using the DH spot as a rest day for positional players, we could.

We offered, he said no, his fault, doesn't matter.....we get Smoak, they get Edwin. Results matter more than how we got here.

[BigLeagueChew]

We offered, he said no, his fault, doesn't matter.....we get Smoak, they get Edwin. Results matter more than how we got here.

Imagine if we didn't re-sign Smoak when we did?The 'how' that would be us scrambling for a first baseman right now, possibly Justin Smoak if we didn't re-sign him just in case, which also seems like a good move that we signed him when we did. If we didn't we could be relying on Morales as our every day first baseman or Pierce, who both have big flaws as everyday players.

[ldnk]

We offered, he said no, his fault, doesn't matter.....we get Smoak, they get Edwin. Results matter more than how we got here.

Imagine if we didn't re-sign Smoak when we did?The 'how' that would be us scrambling for a first baseman right now, possibly Justin Smoak if we didn't re-sign him just in case, which also seems like a good move that we signed him when we did. If we didn't we could be relying on Morales as our every day first baseman or Pierce, who both have big flaws as everyday players.

Who knows though. If you don't have Smoak's money on the books maybe you offer Edwin 24 million/72M for 3 years and he takes that?

[Schad]

To be fair, while I have few complaints about the moves our current FO have made (still don't love Morales, but it's within the bounds of reason), the Smoak deal was and is entirely baffling. He's a bad baseball man.

[BigLeagueChew]

Who knows though. If you don't have Smoak's money on the books maybe you offer Edwin 24 million/72M for 3 years and he takes that?

No idea. If we we're going to pay that much money for a player we should have re-signed Price rather than worry about Edwin or just spend it elsewhere. It would seem like we're not interested in giving any player more than $20 mil per year from this Edwin deal, Tulo's contract, Martins and Buerhles.

[cram]

Curious, Schad -- given how you feel about the team's chances, would you be open to a full tear-down and rebuild? Why not start unloading veterans now? At least the ones who are at peak value (Happ, Donaldson, Estrada).

[BigLeagueChew]

To be fair, while I have few complaints about the moves our current FO have made (still don't love Morales, but it's within the bounds of reason), the Smoak deal was and is entirely baffling. He's a bad baseball man.

Yeah he's no Delgado or anything but Lind, Mourneau, Morrison,Napoli,Reynolds, Wallace? I'll pass. We need production in the lineup still from everywhere but first, assuming we won't get much.

[Schad]

Curious, Schad -- given how you feel about the team's chances, would you be open to a full tear-down and rebuild? Why not start unloading veterans now? At least the ones who are at peak value (Happ, Donaldson, Estrada).

Beyond optics, I think that we're in with a shout for the Wild Card, and we're probably the second-best team in the AL East. The problem is that I think we're far enough behind the Red Sox that it's not worth going nuts to try to chase them down (they aren't a lock to win the division, but we're a long way from favoured to overtake them), and the Wild Card race and game will likely be enough of a jumbled mess that it's not favourable to throw long-term resources at it.

So the current path, while not terribly exciting, works for me. We have a pretty good team, and if things break right, we could have a team that hits July in decent position to make the playoffs, and with enough money set aside that we can make an addition or two as the deadline nears. If, as is more likely IMO, things don't break right, we'll have some cost-effective pitching to put on what is generally a profitable market for those with cost-effective pitching, and we can then start building (or the reverse) from there.

[ldnk]

Curious, Schad -- given how you feel about the team's chances, would you be open to a full tear-down and rebuild? Why not start unloading veterans now? At least the ones who are at peak value (Happ, Donaldson, Estrada).

Beyond optics, I think that we're in with a shout for the Wild Card, and we're probably the second-best team in the AL East. The problem is that I think we're far enough behind the Red Sox that it's not worth going nuts to try to chase them down (they aren't a lock to win the division, but we're a long way from favoured to overtake them), and the Wild Card race and game will likely be enough of a jumbled mess that it's not favourable to throw long-term resources at it.

So the current path, while not terribly exciting, works for me. We have a pretty good team, and if things break right, we could have a team that hits July in decent position to make the playoffs, and with enough money set aside that we can make an addition or two as the deadline nears. If, as is more likely IMO, things don't break right, we'll have some cost-effective pitching to put on what is generally a profitable market for those with cost-effective pitching, and we can then start building (or the reverse) from there.

The roster isn't set at this point as the Jays still need to sign an outfielder (or two) but right now they need to replace

Edwin + Bautista + Saunders = 100 home runs/253 RBIs

They replaced that with Morales/Pearce so far (43 home runs/128 RBIs). That's still a lot of offense the Jays are walking away from while relying on a downgraded bullpen without Cecil and a Grilli who is a year older. The rotation might be a little better with Liriano as the 5th starter over Dickey.

I think looking at the Yankees young players, the Red Sox and even Baltimore who seem to outperform their roster to an extent that this really doesn't look like a playoff team outside of the starting rotation.

[Yosemite Dan]

I'm not sure how anybody thinks we have a legit shot at the playoffs at this point. We used 6 starters this year which is rare and they were the biggest reason we had a WC berth this year. Does anyone really expect Sanchez and Happ to repeat what they did last year? Sanchez should continue to mature but it's likely he will not be as lights out as he was in 2016. I don't think it's realistic to expect Happ to repeat what he did and Stroman is a wash. Estrada looks to be breaking down and Lirirano is a 5th starter. And that's if everyone is healthy which is wishful thinking. If we have to go thru 8 or 9 starters which is a reasonable assumption then who are the replacements.

The BP is worse, and our offence is....well I don't know where our offence is gonna come from when JD and Morales are the only guys you can count on to produce and stay healthy. Every other key batter has got DL written all over them. I think we're life and death to be .500.

[Schad]

The roster isn't set at this point as the Jays still need to sign an outfielder (or two) but right now they need to replace

Edwin + Bautista + Saunders = 100 home runs/253 RBIs

They replaced that with Morales/Pearce so far (43 home runs/128 RBIs). That's still a lot of offense the Jays are walking away from while relying on a downgraded bullpen without Cecil and a Grilli who is a year older. The rotation might be a little better with Liriano as the 5th starter over Dickey.

I think looking at the Yankees young players, the Red Sox and even Baltimore who seem to outperform their roster to an extent that this really doesn't look like a playoff team outside of the starting rotation.

There's no question that we look like a worse team. Our playoff hopes pretty well rely on our less-heralded bats (Pearce and Travis, probably) having very good, healthy seasons in a lineup that doesn't have as much top-end talent but can hit 1 through 8, while our rotation holds up and an improved bullpen and (maybe) improved defense gives us a bit of winneryness. With a fair number of AL teams in flux that might be enough to be in the Wild Card hunt, but it's definitely a team that will have Shapiro positioning his finger over the red button by mid June.