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In the two games this far Cleveland pitchers have gotten 7.4 more called strikes than average. Toronto has gotten 1.8 LESS than average.

http://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/125250/indians-called-strikes-advantage-significant-through-2-games

The regular season difference between Perez and Martin was 1.2 (1.37 vs 0.17, respectively, from Statcorner). It is possible Martin had been a bit worse since his framing was basically neutral, but Perez gaining 2-3 pitches a game seems suspect.

StopitLeo wrote:In the two games this far Cleveland pitchers have gotten 7.4 more called strikes than average. Toronto has gotten 1.8 LESS than average.

http://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/125250/indians-called-strikes-advantage-significant-through-2-games

The regular season difference between Perez and Martin was 1.2 (1.37 vs 0.17, respectively, from Statcorner). It is possible Martin had been a bit worse since his framing was basically neutral, but Perez gaining 2-3 pitches a game seems suspect.

If the gap is that much different from the regular season through 2 games, then I would think the umpires not the catchers are at fault for that difference. Perez is very good at framing pitches but 2 games is such a small sample size it doesn't really tell us much.

What I find odd about this is that Martin was arguably the best catcher in MLB at framing pitches prior to joining the Jays in 2015. Consistently near the top of the league. But he's been closer to slightly above average for 2 seasons here. So is that because of the pitching staff or has that skill slipped on him? Either way, I guess that just feeds into the very anti-Jays umpiring argument Jose is making.

The_Hater wrote:

StopitLeo wrote:In the two games this far Cleveland pitchers have gotten 7.4 more called strikes than average. Toronto has gotten 1.8 LESS than average.

http://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/125250/indians-called-strikes-advantage-significant-through-2-games

The regular season difference between Perez and Martin was 1.2 (1.37 vs 0.17, respectively, from Statcorner). It is possible Martin had been a bit worse since his framing was basically neutral, but Perez gaining 2-3 pitches a game seems suspect.

If the gap is that much different from the regular season through 2 games, then I would think the umpires not the catchers are at fault for that difference. Perez is very good at framing pitches but 2 games is such a small sample size it doesn't really tell us much.

What I find odd about this is that Martin was arguably the best catcher in MLB at framing pitches prior to joining the Jays in 2015. Consistently near the top of the league. But he's been closer to slightly above average for 2 seasons here. So is that because of the pitching staff or has that skill slipped on him? Either way, I guess that just feeds into the very anti-Jays umpiring argument Jose is making.

I think Russ' hand speed has decreased, which has affected both his framing and hitting.

Patman wrote:
I think Russ' hand speed has decreased, which has affected both his framing and hitting.

Maybe but people were saying this in April/May as well. Martin is done. His hands are too slow. And then he was the best hitter on the team for almost 2 solid months during the summer. With catchers, they play through so many nagging injuries and bruises during the season that it's difficult to be a consistently good hitter. It's a brutal position on one's body.

Here's a 2009 article about David Ortiz losing bat speed and the league was finally catching up him. He slumped to a .238 average and a .794 OPS that season. Oops.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/columns/story?id=4158199&columnist=bryant_howard

Well, to be honest I don't think Cleveland is scoring on hitter's counts. Lindor's homer was an 0-2 mistake. The single was early in the count, too. How much of a benefit is Cleveland really getting? We did well to put runner's in scoring position against Kluber, but I felt like the guys coming up in those key moments were either ice cold (Martin) or hurt (Travis). It doesn't seem like Martin could hit a mistake pitch right now.

The_Hater wrote:

Patman wrote:
I think Russ' hand speed has decreased, which has affected both his framing and hitting.

Maybe but people were saying this in April/May as well. Martin is done. His hands are too slow. And then he was the best hitter on the team for almost 2 solid months during the summer. With catchers, they play through so many nagging injuries and bruises during the season that it's difficult to be a consistently good hitter. It's a brutal position on one's body.

Here's a 2009 article about David Ortiz losing bat speed and the league was finally catching up him. He slumped to a .238 average and a .794 OPS that season. Oops.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/columns/story?id=4158199&columnist=bryant_howard

Yeah, the Big Papi resurgence was remarkable.

As far as Russ, he hasn't fallen off a cliff, but I look at his long-term trends in the last 4 years in both batting and catching/fielding, and it's understandably decreasing for a catcher of his age. Of course, he still brings all the intangibles, which is a big reason why he's been in the post-season consistently.

Most big league players have the ability to put on a hot streak for a couple of months, but over the course of a season, things normalize to the mean, and you see a truer picture of where a player is. I will give credit to Russ for soldiering on through this season when he was pretty much the only big-league level catcher on the roster until we got Navarro back late into the season.

Patman wrote:

The_Hater wrote:

Patman wrote:
I think Russ' hand speed has decreased, which has affected both his framing and hitting.

Maybe but people were saying this in April/May as well. Martin is done. His hands are too slow. And then he was the best hitter on the team for almost 2 solid months during the summer. With catchers, they play through so many nagging injuries and bruises during the season that it's difficult to be a consistently good hitter. It's a brutal position on one's body.

Here's a 2009 article about David Ortiz losing bat speed and the league was finally catching up him. He slumped to a .238 average and a .794 OPS that season. Oops.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/columns/story?id=4158199&columnist=bryant_howard

Yeah, the Big Papi resurgence was remarkable.

As far as Russ, he hasn't fallen off a cliff, but I look at his long-term trends in the last 4 years in both batting and catching/fielding, and it's understandably decreasing for a catcher of his age. Of course, he still brings all the intangibles, which is a big reason why he's been in the post-season consistently.

Most big league players have the ability to put on a hot streak for a couple of months, but over the course of a season, things normalize to the mean, and you see a truer picture of where a player is. I will give credit to Russ for soldiering on through this season when he was pretty much the only big-league level catcher on the roster until we got Navarro back late into the season.

Baseball can be a streaky game to begin with but specifically with Catchers, I think those streaks and slumps are even more pronounced because of the brutal physical demands of the position. Buster Posey is the best hitting catcher in MLB but still went 2 months this summer without hitting a single HR. Who knows exactly why? Did he take a foul ball off the hand or shoulder? Pull a groin muscle? Having marital/girlfriend troubles at home? As fans, we don't generally account for any of these things and if a player mentions them, they come off as an excuse.

Martin could be slipping, and probably is to some degree, but how much is age related and how much is from other circumstances?

The_Hater wrote:

Patman wrote:

The_Hater wrote:
Maybe but people were saying this in April/May as well. Martin is done. His hands are too slow. And then he was the best hitter on the team for almost 2 solid months during the summer. With catchers, they play through so many nagging injuries and bruises during the season that it's difficult to be a consistently good hitter. It's a brutal position on one's body.

Here's a 2009 article about David Ortiz losing bat speed and the league was finally catching up him. He slumped to a .238 average and a .794 OPS that season. Oops.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/columns/story?id=4158199&columnist=bryant_howard

Yeah, the Big Papi resurgence was remarkable.

As far as Russ, he hasn't fallen off a cliff, but I look at his long-term trends in the last 4 years in both batting and catching/fielding, and it's understandably decreasing for a catcher of his age. Of course, he still brings all the intangibles, which is a big reason why he's been in the post-season consistently.

Most big league players have the ability to put on a hot streak for a couple of months, but over the course of a season, things normalize to the mean, and you see a truer picture of where a player is. I will give credit to Russ for soldiering on through this season when he was pretty much the only big-league level catcher on the roster until we got Navarro back late into the season.

Baseball can be a streaky game to begin with but specifically with Catchers, I think those streaks and slumps are even more pronounced because of the brutal physical demands of the position. Buster Posey is the best hitting catcher in MLB but still went 2 months this summer without hitting a single HR. Who knows exactly why? Did he take a foul ball off the hand or shoulder? Pull a groin muscle? Having marital/girlfriend troubles at home? As fans, we don't generally account for any of these things and if a player mentions them, they come off as an excuse.

Martin could be slipping, and probably is to some degree, but how much is age related and how much is from other circumstances?

I agree with your points. I'm not really concerned about slumps, and I'm not concerned about any single stat, especially homers. Even if Russ had 0 hits in the post-season, I still wouldn't be concerned because it's such a small sample size. I look at larger bodies of work and stats across the board, and his are generally trending downwards. It could be age, it could be physical/mental/emotional fatigue, but those factors are not mutually exclusive.

Sounds more like one-sided umpiring.

No we're not.

I cant wait for a computer to call balls and strikes

Mak wrote:I cant wait for a computer to call balls and strikes

100% this.

Pitch framing shouldn't even be a thing - a ball should be a ball or a strike based on it's actual location and if the batter swung and/or made contact with it and not: how it was caught after it passed the batter, the reputation of the pitcher and batter, what the count is, natural error, etc.

There have been a few bad calls in Game 1, but it really seems like the Indians are doing a better job of painting the corners than the Jays.

Shimso wrote:

Mak wrote:I cant wait for a computer to call balls and strikes

100% this.

Pitch framing shouldn't even be a thing - a ball should be a ball or a strike based on it's actual location and if the batter swung and/or made contact with it and not: how it was caught after it passed the batter, the reputation of the pitcher and batter, what the count is, natural error, etc.

Absolutely -- it's fairly easy technology at this point and it just makes umps look stupid given that all broadcasts show it.

Personally I think umps are doing better now than in the past with the strike zone when the zone was really wide for some. But when a viewer can get clear visible feedback now that a ball is outside, even if its much less than before, it makes things look worse.

They aren't playing well but Tulo struck out on two balls that were well off the plate.

StopitLeo wrote:They aren't playing well but Tulo struck out on two balls that were well off the plate.

That happens when you are unsure of the strike zone. The Jays are striking out way too much all year thoough and Cleveland pitchers are just tempting them knowing they will bite.

JN wrote:

Shimso wrote:

Mak wrote:I cant wait for a computer to call balls and strikes

100% this.

Pitch framing shouldn't even be a thing - a ball should be a ball or a strike based on it's actual location and if the batter swung and/or made contact with it and not: how it was caught after it passed the batter, the reputation of the pitcher and batter, what the count is, natural error, etc.

Absolutely -- it's fairly easy technology at this point and it just makes umps look stupid given that all broadcasts show it.

Personally I think umps are doing better now than in the past with the strike zone when the zone was really wide for some. But when a viewer can get clear visible feedback now that a ball is outside, even if its much less than before, it makes things look worse.

The TBS strike zone is trash though. That's really not helping things.

The Jays set a franchise record for strikeouts this regular season. So in a sense, it's business as usual.

James_Raptors wrote:The Jays set a franchise record for strikeouts this regular season. So in a sense, it's business as usual.

They need to start sitting on curveballs. Cleveland is dropping them in over the heart of the plate for first pitch strikes. Unless they do that they won't be able to get any hittable fastballs.

Rapcity_11 wrote:

JN wrote:

Shimso wrote:100% this.

Pitch framing shouldn't even be a thing - a ball should be a ball or a strike based on it's actual location and if the batter swung and/or made contact with it and not: how it was caught after it passed the batter, the reputation of the pitcher and batter, what the count is, natural error, etc.

Absolutely -- it's fairly easy technology at this point and it just makes umps look stupid given that all broadcasts show it.

Personally I think umps are doing better now than in the past with the strike zone when the zone was really wide for some. But when a viewer can get clear visible feedback now that a ball is outside, even if its much less than before, it makes things look worse.

The TBS strike zone is trash though. That's really not helping things.

Agreed. I think thats a huge part of the fan complaining. If you watch the pitches, and then where their stupid zone thing is....in my view all the pitches are showing up left of where they actually are. So the outside corner to righties is looking like they are missing, and the outside corner to lefties looks like its a solid strike. I recall a few last night where the Blue Jays Strike zone twitter feed highlighted a pitch and it was not the same opinion as the TBS one had.