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Gibbons will return as manager in 2017

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Re: RE: Re: Gibbons will return as manager in 2017 

Post#61 » by U_Mad » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:07 pm

Skin Blues wrote:
Patman wrote:
EJaggit wrote:
The discomfort that Happ had when Davis was on first cost is a run in result costed us the game, sure it was hitting but they had more things going for them, one was speed and mainly it was timely hitting for them. Both teams pitched great, however I question john Gibbons for not bringing in a guy like Liriano to keep batters off... Indians knew what Estrada had. They knew 100%. Liriano couldn't muffled them or would've have been worse. Oh well.


Agreed. The thing about speed on the basepaths is that you don't need to steal a base or take an extra bag to be effective. Just the threat of it has effects.

It's similar to how the threat of a shooter in basketball changes a defense even if that player did not make any shots.

The net effect of having a burner on first base is non-existent if not negative. Many times having a runner like that on first hurts the batter by making them take pitches they otherwise wouldn't. Yes, Davis stole a base, but so much more went into that run than Davis' base running. In chronological order: Roberto Perez drew a walk, J.A. Happ threw a wild pitch, and Francisco Lindor hit a single that scored the runner. That inning, in all likelihood, would have turned out the exact same if Davis had struck out rather than hit into a fielder's choice and stole second. Bottom line: we didn't hit, they did a better job managing their pitching staff. Their base-running was a non-factor, especially when you consider their other two steal attempts were Crisp stealing second and being stranded on base in game 2, and Lindor getting caught to end the 8th inning of game 3.


"I only included innings 1-6 (to try and eliminate pinch runners, elite relievers, late and close-game strategies, etc.) and batters who occupied the 1-7 slots."
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Re: RE: Re: Gibbons will return as manager in 2017 

Post#62 » by Skin Blues » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:40 pm

U_Mad wrote:
Skin Blues wrote:
Patman wrote:
Agreed. The thing about speed on the basepaths is that you don't need to steal a base or take an extra bag to be effective. Just the threat of it has effects.

It's similar to how the threat of a shooter in basketball changes a defense even if that player did not make any shots.

The net effect of having a burner on first base is non-existent if not negative. Many times having a runner like that on first hurts the batter by making them take pitches they otherwise wouldn't. Yes, Davis stole a base, but so much more went into that run than Davis' base running. In chronological order: Roberto Perez drew a walk, J.A. Happ threw a wild pitch, and Francisco Lindor hit a single that scored the runner. That inning, in all likelihood, would have turned out the exact same if Davis had struck out rather than hit into a fielder's choice and stole second. Bottom line: we didn't hit, they did a better job managing their pitching staff. Their base-running was a non-factor, especially when you consider their other two steal attempts were Crisp stealing second and being stranded on base in game 2, and Lindor getting caught to end the 8th inning of game 3.


"I only included innings 1-6 (to try and eliminate pinch runners, elite relievers, late and close-game strategies, etc.) and batters who occupied the 1-7 slots."

Considering that the situation we're talking about (Davis on base with Happ pitching in the 3rd inning) the parameters are perfectly appropriate. Pinch runner? Nope. Elite reliever? Nope. Late and close game strategy? Nope. Batter in 7-9 slot? Nope. If you want to argue with an author of The Book about baseball analysis, be my guest. Or feel free to provide another study that shows there is a positive effect from having a fast runner on base.
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Re: RE: Re: Gibbons will return as manager in 2017 

Post#63 » by U_Mad » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:53 pm

Skin Blues wrote:
U_Mad wrote:
Skin Blues wrote:The net effect of having a burner on first base is non-existent if not negative. Many times having a runner like that on first hurts the batter by making them take pitches they otherwise wouldn't. Yes, Davis stole a base, but so much more went into that run than Davis' base running. In chronological order: Roberto Perez drew a walk, J.A. Happ threw a wild pitch, and Francisco Lindor hit a single that scored the runner. That inning, in all likelihood, would have turned out the exact same if Davis had struck out rather than hit into a fielder's choice and stole second. Bottom line: we didn't hit, they did a better job managing their pitching staff. Their base-running was a non-factor, especially when you consider their other two steal attempts were Crisp stealing second and being stranded on base in game 2, and Lindor getting caught to end the 8th inning of game 3.


"I only included innings 1-6 (to try and eliminate pinch runners, elite relievers, late and close-game strategies, etc.) and batters who occupied the 1-7 slots."

Considering that the situation we're talking about (Davis on base with Happ pitching in the 3rd inning) the parameters are perfectly appropriate. Pinch runner? Nope. Elite reliever? Nope. Late and close game strategy? Nope. Batter in 7-9 slot? Nope. If you want to argue with an author of The Book about baseball analysis, be my guest. Or feel free to provide another study that shows there is a positive effect from having a fast runner on base.


This is playoff baseball every run matters way more you're not guaranteed 162 games. 3rd inning of game 2 of the ALCS and a runner on first is way more of a high leverage situation than the same scenario somewhere in jun or july
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Re: RE: Re: Gibbons will return as manager in 2017 

Post#64 » by Skin Blues » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:10 pm

U_Mad wrote:
Skin Blues wrote:
U_Mad wrote:
"I only included innings 1-6 (to try and eliminate pinch runners, elite relievers, late and close-game strategies, etc.) and batters who occupied the 1-7 slots."

Considering that the situation we're talking about (Davis on base with Happ pitching in the 3rd inning) the parameters are perfectly appropriate. Pinch runner? Nope. Elite reliever? Nope. Late and close game strategy? Nope. Batter in 7-9 slot? Nope. If you want to argue with an author of The Book about baseball analysis, be my guest. Or feel free to provide another study that shows there is a positive effect from having a fast runner on base.


This is playoff baseball every run matters way more you're not guaranteed 162 games. 3rd inning of game 2 of the ALCS and a runner on first is way more of a high leverage situation than the same scenario somewhere in jun or july

I think you're misinterpreting the purpose of narrowing the sample data in that way. It's not meant to avoid important situations, it's meant to, for instance, avoid a situation where a team is playing for one and only one run, or where they might need 3 runs, because that muddies up the signal to noise ratio.

Here's another study, this time from Ben Linbergh at Baseball Prospectus. Same result. And they cite a third study which comes to the same conclusion: disruptive runners on first base negatively impact the batter compared to slower, non-aggressive runners.

Like I said, feel free to find an alternate study that shows a different result.
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Re: Gibbons will return as manager in 2017 

Post#66 » by The_Hater » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:18 pm

Yogz_GM wrote:http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-dodgers-dave-roberts-baseballs-ultimate-micromanager-1477078948?mod=e2fb


I haven't decided if Roberts is a good or bad manager yet. Players generally hate playing for micro managers just like employees hate working under them.
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Re: Gibbons will return as manager in 2017 

Post#67 » by Yogz_GM » Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:25 pm

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/baseball/kelly-kiss-of-life-from-mark-shapiro-puts-john-gibbons-on-notice/article32465774/


This guys wraps up my gut feel that Gibby could have made a difference in the Cleveland series....but was incapable.
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Re: Gibbons will return as manager in 2017 

Post#68 » by polo007 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:43 am

Toronto Blue Jays manager John Gibbons joins Prime Time Sports to discuss the team’s exit from the postseason, which type of player the team needs to acquire this off-season, and his contract situation.

http://pmd.fan590.com/audio_on_demand-4/Gibbons-We-wanted-to-get-to-the-top-pts-20161026-Interview.mp3
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Re: Gibbons will return as manager in 2017 

Post#69 » by Santoki » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:15 pm

Yogz_GM wrote:http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/baseball/kelly-kiss-of-life-from-mark-shapiro-puts-john-gibbons-on-notice/article32465774/


This guys wraps up my gut feel that Gibby could have made a difference in the Cleveland series....but was incapable.


Cathal Kelly wrapping up your feelings about sums everything up here.
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Re: Gibbons will return as manager in 2017 

Post#70 » by Yogz_GM » Sun Nov 6, 2016 6:43 pm

Santoki wrote:
Yogz_GM wrote:http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/baseball/kelly-kiss-of-life-from-mark-shapiro-puts-john-gibbons-on-notice/article32465774/


This guys wraps up my gut feel that Gibby could have made a difference in the Cleveland series....but was incapable.


Cathal Kelly wrapping up your feelings about sums everything up here.



What does that mean? I'm not familiar with the bias you seem to have.
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Re: Gibbons will return as manager in 2017 

Post#71 » by polo007 » Wed Dec 7, 2016 12:33 am

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Re: Gibbons will return as manager in 2017 

Post#72 » by polo007 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:11 am

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