ImageImageImageImageImage

What does a Jays firesale look like?

Moderator: JaysRule15

User avatar
BramptonYute
Head Coach
Posts: 6,847
And1: 8,677
Joined: Mar 14, 2013
     

Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#121 » by BramptonYute » Sat Jul 1, 2017 3:06 pm

I hope estradas value hasnt fallen that much this year
fmradioguy
Freshman
Posts: 73
And1: 55
Joined: Jul 10, 2011

Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#122 » by fmradioguy » Sat Jul 1, 2017 3:14 pm

Cyrus wrote:Curious does anyone know when the last time the Jays and Sox got together on a deal? Or Jays and Yanks, Jays and Balt? Any significant deals or were it just a minor league player for cash type of deal.


Depends on what constitutes "significant". The only truly significant trade I think of between those teams was the Clemens for Wells trade with the Yankees. Maybe Barfield for Leiter (also with the Yankees).
User avatar
Schad
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 57,353
And1: 17,050
Joined: Feb 08, 2006
Location: The Goat Rodeo
     

Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#123 » by Schad » Sat Jul 1, 2017 3:56 pm

Lateral Quicks wrote:Agree with Schad, if you're going to rebuild, go all in. If you have a young player who likely won't be around by the time you're competitive again, he should be moved.

All of these guys should be moved, if possible:
Donaldson
Smoak
Martin
Happ
Bautista
Pillar
Estrada
Morales
Tulowitzki

You have to look seriously at moving Stroman, Sanchez and Osuna, too. Particularly if one of them can get you out from under Tulo's contract.

Done right, it will be an absolute gutting. And we may lose 100+ games next year. I'd be looking for AAA and AA talent that's ready for big league experience in 2018.


Won't happen all at once, but a lot of it would need to happen in a fairly short period of time, simply because of the contractual situations of those players. Shop Bautista, Estrada and Joe Smith aggressively at the deadline, and move any of the above that draws a good offer; if Osuna is coveted (and, if we feel like a trade won't harm his mental well-being at this time, because we owe him that much), cash in. Move Donaldson and Happ in the offseason (their return will be higher if the recipient has the ability to QO them at the end of the year and recoup some value), and hopefully find a taker for a guy like Martin, who might be movable with two years remaining. Move Pearce and Morales at the 2018 deadline if they have any value, etc.

Within 24 months, we should be able to cycle out most of the vets, using the freed-up money to add sensibly (ie., no crazy long-term deals). We'll definitely do some sucking; it's pretty well unavoidable, because we aren't spectacular as things stand, and our upper farm system is very weak, but such is the bargain we made.
Image
**** your asterisk.
User avatar
Schad
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 57,353
And1: 17,050
Joined: Feb 08, 2006
Location: The Goat Rodeo
     

Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#124 » by Schad » Sat Jul 1, 2017 4:07 pm

fmradioguy wrote:
Cyrus wrote:Curious does anyone know when the last time the Jays and Sox got together on a deal? Or Jays and Yanks, Jays and Balt? Any significant deals or were it just a minor league player for cash type of deal.


Depends on what constitutes "significant". The only truly significant trade I think of between those teams was the Clemens for Wells trade with the Yankees. Maybe Barfield for Leiter (also with the Yankees).


There aren't a tonne of them, that's for sure. We also traded Juan Guzman to the Orioles (we received a 27 year old reliever who was awful both before and after the trade, and a 19 year old who was a 4th round pick the year before, that never learned to hit; a year later, the O's moved him for BJ Ryan), and we shipped Raul Mondesi to the Yankees for an overage prospect who made three appearances that season and was never heard from again.
Image
**** your asterisk.
User avatar
BramptonYute
Head Coach
Posts: 6,847
And1: 8,677
Joined: Mar 14, 2013
     

Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#125 » by BramptonYute » Sat Jul 1, 2017 5:53 pm

Has estrada lowered his value a lot considering the season he's had so far?

hope he can still return a significant amount
Saul Goodman
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,660
And1: 2,355
Joined: Feb 27, 2013
         

Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#126 » by Saul Goodman » Sat Jul 1, 2017 6:44 pm

I'm inclined to keep Stroman and Sanchez and Osuna for the time being. Trade Happ, Liriano, and Estrada, Joe Smith. for whatever prospects you can get (Houston is a good bet). Look at the market for Bautista and even entertain a godfather offer for Donaldson(would be totally shocked if hes moved this season.)
2016 GMAT Blazers

Howard/Nene/
Griffin/M.Leonard/T.Jones
Porter/Marc.Morris/J.Johnson
McCollum/Stauskas/Thompson/Seldon
Lillard/Bayless/DeColo
User avatar
Schad
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 57,353
And1: 17,050
Joined: Feb 08, 2006
Location: The Goat Rodeo
     

Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#127 » by Schad » Sat Jul 1, 2017 7:11 pm

Saul Goodman wrote:I'm inclined to keep Stroman and Sanchez and Osuna for the time being. Trade Happ, Liriano, and Estrada, Joe Smith. for whatever prospects you can get (Houston is a good bet). Look at the market for Bautista and even entertain a godfather offer for Donaldson(would be totally shocked if hes moved this season.)


Probably won't trade Sanchez/Stroman this year, but with Osuna he's about to get really expensive, and relievers are incredibly variable. By the time we're actually good again, the odds are good that Osuna will be close to walking (and you don't want to be the team giving him a huge-money extension), or will have seen his performance step back, as is sadly common with closers.

Meanwhile, he could be traded for a serious package of talent that would crest with the rest of our players. Washington was sniffing around, and they have some high-calibre prospects who could be much more useful than the closer on a rebuilding club: Victor Robles is a monster CF prospect (who probably wouldn't be available for just Osuna, but we could perhaps sweeten things, as they could use a starter and an upgrade at catcher), Erick Fedde (who they're using as a reliever right now because they thought they might need relief help...it's kinda silly) is a near-ready SP, and Juan Soto is a seriously polished 18 year old power hitting corner OF who was rivaling Bichette and Vlad's performances in low-A before spraining his ankle.
Image
**** your asterisk.
Saul Goodman
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,660
And1: 2,355
Joined: Feb 27, 2013
         

Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#128 » by Saul Goodman » Sat Jul 1, 2017 7:27 pm

Schad wrote:
Saul Goodman wrote:I'm inclined to keep Stroman and Sanchez and Osuna for the time being. Trade Happ, Liriano, and Estrada, Joe Smith. for whatever prospects you can get (Houston is a good bet). Look at the market for Bautista and even entertain a godfather offer for Donaldson(would be totally shocked if hes moved this season.)


Probably won't trade Sanchez/Stroman this year, but with Osuna he's about to get really expensive, and relievers are incredibly variable. By the time we're actually good again, the odds are good that Osuna will be close to walking (and you don't want to be the team giving him a huge-money extension), or will have seen his performance step back, as is sadly common with closers.

Meanwhile, he could be traded for a serious package of talent that would crest with the rest of our players. Washington was sniffing around, and they have some high-calibre prospects who could be much more useful than the closer on a rebuilding club: Victor Robles is a monster CF prospect (who probably wouldn't be available for just Osuna, but we could perhaps sweeten things, as they could use a starter and an upgrade at catcher), Erick Fedde (who they're using as a reliever right now because they thought they might need relief help...it's kinda silly) is a near-ready SP, and Juan Soto is a seriously polished 18 year old power hitting corner OF who was rivaling Bichette and Vlad's performances in low-A before spraining his ankle.


I'm highly in favour of moving Osuna but for some reason I just think the backlash would be too great for management to weather.
2016 GMAT Blazers

Howard/Nene/
Griffin/M.Leonard/T.Jones
Porter/Marc.Morris/J.Johnson
McCollum/Stauskas/Thompson/Seldon
Lillard/Bayless/DeColo
User avatar
Schad
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 57,353
And1: 17,050
Joined: Feb 08, 2006
Location: The Goat Rodeo
     

Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#129 » by Schad » Sat Jul 1, 2017 7:30 pm

Saul Goodman wrote:I'm highly in favour of moving Osuna but for some reason I just think the backlash would be too great for management to weather.


Possibly, but I'm hoping that Shapiro and Atkins have the leeway to make the moves they deem necessary. Let's face it: the backlash will mostly come from people who are going to stop paying attention as soon as this team ceases to compete anyway, and who'll return as soon as we're good again. From a tactical standpoint, their opinions can pretty well be ignored, IMO.
Image
**** your asterisk.
Sifu
Veteran
Posts: 2,556
And1: 1,005
Joined: Apr 26, 2007
Location: Bizarro World

Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#130 » by Sifu » Sat Jul 1, 2017 8:35 pm

I'm all in favour of a rebuild at this time too.
So_Fresh
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,992
And1: 3,450
Joined: Jan 29, 2013
       

Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#131 » by So_Fresh » Sun Jul 2, 2017 1:16 pm

Have no choice. Team is the oldest in the majors and under achieving this year. It sucks, but it has to be done. Lets hope that we have a competitive team again, in the not so distant future. These fans deserve it imo. Seeing the Rogers centre filled with fans and cheering on the Blue Jays was fun. We have some talent in the minors, we just need to add to it and hope they develop into solid major league players.
User avatar
Natural11
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,144
And1: 2,760
Joined: Nov 27, 2008

Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#132 » by Natural11 » Sun Jul 2, 2017 5:24 pm

So_Fresh wrote:Have no choice. Team is the oldest in the majors and under achieving this year. It sucks, but it has to be done. Lets hope that it doesn't take too long to be competitive again. Seeing the Rogers center filled with fans and cheering on the Blue Jays was fun. We have some talent in the minors, we just need to add to it and hope they develop into solid major league players.


It was pretty refreshing to see young guys like Dwight Smith and Anthony Alford getting a crack at the outfield spots. Ironically, the best and most entertaining play of the season came when multiple position players were on the DL and we were mixing and matching with scrubs everywhere. I know that scrubs everywhere isn't the key to sustained performance or attendance, but it certainly dulls the pain to see young players out there trying versus underachieving vets on their retirement contracts.

I supported the decision in the offseason to let it ride and see if they could pull off another run. It would have been tough to pull the plug after back to back play-off appearances. They gave it their best shot, but it's clear this team is just not good enough to compete this year.

Should they rebuild, I just hope they expand their play style a little bit. I'm beyond tired of the home run or bust approach.

The one moment that stands out for me this year was a week or two ago when Dwight Smith was on second with one out and Pillar was at the plate. Smith successfully stole third, but Pillar I guess was distracted by it and struck out on the pitch. He then proceeds to give Smith his finest mean mug. I'd been watching vets make stupid base running decisions all year, then this kid comes up, brings a little life to this team and gets shot down for it. Kind of summed up the season for me.
fouronesix22
Veteran
Posts: 2,692
And1: 3,548
Joined: Jul 10, 2015

Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#133 » by fouronesix22 » Sun Jul 2, 2017 6:36 pm

Need to sell, this team is done also I dont care if we do sell, Im one of the fans who will still watch who cares about the rest of bandwagoners. Either way we have to rebuild to be good again
RalphWiggum
RealGM
Posts: 12,915
And1: 8,222
Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Location: PARTS UNKNOWN
   

Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#134 » by RalphWiggum » Sun Jul 2, 2017 8:35 pm

Donaldson, Happ, Estrada, Liriano, and Morales should all be dealt. We probably won't have to eat much if any salary to move them and they could net us some decent prospects. The only thing that sucks is no team that's going to be a buyer is in need of a 3rd baseman so we'd be lucky to get 75¢ on the dollar for JD.

Martin and Tulo should also be dealt but I'm guessing we'd have to eat half their contracts and probably wouldn't get much in return. It's still a huge net positive in my eyes. Pay them 40 million a year to be awful when they are unlikely to ever get any better or pay them $20 million to go away and let younger players develop.

We had a good run but it's over, no point putting fresh paint on a house that needs to be torn down.
User avatar
Schad
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 57,353
And1: 17,050
Joined: Feb 08, 2006
Location: The Goat Rodeo
     

Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#135 » by Schad » Sun Jul 2, 2017 8:39 pm

RalphWiggum wrote:Donaldson, Happ, Estrada, Liriano, and Morales should all be dealt. We probably won't have to eat much if any salary to move them and they could net us some decent prospects. The only thing that sucks is no team that's going to be a buyer is in need of a 3rd baseman so we'd be lucky to get 75¢ on the dollar for JD.


The Red Sox could definitely use a 3B. And we could definitely use Rafael Devers, who isn't a long way off.
Image
**** your asterisk.
RalphWiggum
RealGM
Posts: 12,915
And1: 8,222
Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Location: PARTS UNKNOWN
   

Re: RE: Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#136 » by RalphWiggum » Sun Jul 2, 2017 8:44 pm

Schad wrote:
RalphWiggum wrote:Donaldson, Happ, Estrada, Liriano, and Morales should all be dealt. We probably won't have to eat much if any salary to move them and they could net us some decent prospects. The only thing that sucks is no team that's going to be a buyer is in need of a 3rd baseman so we'd be lucky to get 75¢ on the dollar for JD.


The Red Sox could definitely use a 3B. And we could definitely use Rafael Devers, who isn't a long way off.

Teams very rarely trade stars within the division which I frankly don't get if you're about to go into rebuild mode. Boston is the only possible buyer I can think of that could use a 3B.

I hope Shapiro doesn't stick to that archaic line of thinking but my guess is he will.
User avatar
Schad
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 57,353
And1: 17,050
Joined: Feb 08, 2006
Location: The Goat Rodeo
     

Re: RE: Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#137 » by Schad » Mon Jul 3, 2017 12:54 am

RalphWiggum wrote:Teams very rarely trade stars within the division which I frankly don't get if you're about to go into rebuild mode. Boston is the only possible buyer I can think of that could use a 3B.

I hope Shapiro doesn't stick to that archaic line of thinking but my guess is he will.


For what it's worth, Shapiro has made a significant (if not star-level) trade within his division before. The Indians moved Jhonny Peralta, who'd been with the team forever, to Detroit in 2010. His trading partner? Dave Dombrowski, current GM of the Red Sox.
Image
**** your asterisk.
User avatar
JaysRule15
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 23,725
And1: 119,974
Joined: Dec 26, 2011
Location: Malvern Crew
       

Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#138 » by JaysRule15 » Mon Jul 3, 2017 3:06 am

RalphWiggum wrote:Donaldson, Happ, Estrada, Liriano, and Morales should all be dealt. We probably won't have to eat much if any salary to move them and they could net us some decent prospects. The only thing that sucks is no team that's going to be a buyer is in need of a 3rd baseman so we'd be lucky to get 75¢ on the dollar for JD.

Martin and Tulo should also be dealt but I'm guessing we'd have to eat half their contracts and probably wouldn't get much in return. It's still a huge net positive in my eyes. Pay them 40 million a year to be awful when they are unlikely to ever get any better or pay them $20 million to go away and let younger players develop.

We had a good run but it's over, no point putting fresh paint on a house that needs to be torn down.


Aside from Donaldson, and maybe Happ, no one else on that list is getting us a decent prospect imo.

Estrada- Having a tough season and likely not a Top 3 starter on any contending team right now. Free agent at the end of the season.

Liriano- Having a horrible season after being terrible in Pittsburgh last year. Not a Top 4 on any contending team plus a FA at season's end.

Morales- Has a current -0.2 WAR as a DH only player and is owed $23 Million over the next years.

Martin and Tulo- Old and unproductive. Like you already said, we're not getting much for these guys even if we eat some of the money on their deals.

The only ones with value are Donaldson, Osuna, Smoak, Happ and Pillar.

If we really are serious about a rebuild, I'd move Smoak and Osuna especially ASAP, since they're in the midst of great seasons and have years of control. We would be selling very high on these guys.
Image
The_Hater
GHOAT (Greatest Hater Of All Time)
Posts: 85,319
And1: 40,047
Joined: May 23, 2001
     

Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#139 » by The_Hater » Mon Jul 3, 2017 5:58 am

BramptonYute wrote:I hope estradas value hasnt fallen that much this year


It's tanked. He has virtually no trade value right now.
AthensBucks wrote:Lowry is done.
Nurse is below average at best.
Masai is overrated.
I dont get how so many people believe in the raptors,they have zero to chance to win it all.


April 14th, 2019.
User avatar
Lateral Quicks
RealGM
Posts: 20,291
And1: 16,360
Joined: Dec 05, 2002
   

Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#140 » by Lateral Quicks » Mon Jul 3, 2017 2:09 pm

At this point I just want to see some young, dynamic players on the roster. Watching a zillion strikeouts from slow veterans interspersed by the occasional solo home run isn't very entertaining baseball.

Let's start by replacing Pillar and Bautista for the rest of this year with Pompey and Alford. Or go one step further and put Smith out in LF, too. Who knows, maybe we'll get lucky and at least one of them will prove to be an above-average starter going forward.
Nick Nurse recounting his first meeting with Kawhi:
“We could have gone forever. (Raptors management) kept knocking on the door and I was like, ‘A couple more minutes.’ Because we were really into it."

Return to Toronto Blue Jays