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What does a Jays firesale look like?

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Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#21 » by bluerap23 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:36 pm

I think they can move Tulo and Martin. They would have to eat a lot of salary but those dudes still have some value.
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Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#22 » by dagger » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:20 pm

I don't think it would be necessary to move everyone, because the smart way to rebuild would be to do what the Leafs finally did, and accept the outcome rather than fight it (as previous managements had done). Starting next season, we should see the first good young positional talent reach the major league level - Tellez or Alford have a good shot by then. If JD were traded, I would expect a prospect good enough and far enough along in his development to be considered as well. But the pool will broaden for 2019 and 2020. So it's not like you need to free up money for a big free agent splash - unless it's for keeping your own young players by buying out arb years, and even then, it should be possible to move out enough money to do that without going nuts. What you want is to have more money for free agents around 2020 when the team has a younger, more athletic and hopefully more talented core and wants to round things out with some quality free agent signings (not necessarily one big one either).
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Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#23 » by Schad » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:46 pm

I agree with that in the main, but it might end up being a more aggressive fire sale simply because we have so few good long-term contracts...we've got guys on somewhat unpleasant long-term deals, and we've got guys who are impending free agents within two seasons.

Ideally, we would pair the savings from trading off vets with extensions for the younger players, so that we aren't immediately faced with big, ugly free agent decisions upon this team regaining its footing.
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Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#24 » by Mak » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:48 pm

Only players I would keep that are on the roster are Aaron Sanchez, Stroman and Osuna? anybody else?
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Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#25 » by dballislife » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:50 am

president, gm, and every coach needs to go too
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Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#26 » by Schad » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:54 am

dballislife wrote:president, gm, and every coach needs to go too


No, this is silly. The president and GM inherited this eventuality; it's hardly their fault that they were handed a situation that anyone who paid the slightest attention to our future could tell would end in an ugly fashion.
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Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#27 » by vaff87 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:17 am

What team would make the most sense for a Donaldson trade?
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Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#28 » by Schad » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:28 am

vaff87 wrote:What team would make the most sense for a Donaldson trade?


While no one would want to trade a star to a divisional rival, the Red Sox would be a logical destination. Sandoval looks like he's done, and Bogaerts has settled in at SS. They could easily put together a package centered around Rafael Devers (serious prospect at 3B), Jason Groome (big-time LHP) and others if they decide to chuck everything to compete in the near term.

Plus, depleting the Red Sox farm medium-term to help them compete while we suck wouldn't be so bad.
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Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#29 » by vaff87 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:30 am

Schad wrote:
vaff87 wrote:What team would make the most sense for a Donaldson trade?


While no one would want to trade a star to a divisional rival, the Red Sox would be a logical destination. Sandoval looks like he's done, and Bogaerts has settled in at SS. They could easily put together a package centered around Rafael Devers (serious prospect at 3B), Jason Groome (big-time LHP) and others if they decide to chuck everything to compete in the near term.

Plus, depleting the Red Sox farm medium-term to help them compete while we suck wouldn't be so bad.


That does sound like a Dombrowski thing to do, as well. Would hate for JD to be on the Red Sox, though.
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Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#30 » by Schad » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:33 am

vaff87 wrote:That does sound like a Dombrowski thing to do, as well. Would hate for JD to be on the Red Sox, though.


Me too, until it came time to pay him. Then it would be hilarious, because the Red Sox are building a payroll bomb that would make Anthopolous reach for the Kleenex.
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Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#31 » by vaff87 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:38 am

Schad wrote:
vaff87 wrote:That does sound like a Dombrowski thing to do, as well. Would hate for JD to be on the Red Sox, though.


Me too, until it came time to pay him. Then it would be hilarious, because the Red Sox are building a payroll bomb that would make Anthopolous reach for the Kleenex.


Can't wait until they eventually have to fork over the money to Betts and Bogaerts.

Will their player development take a hit without Cherington? Will ours improve with him?
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Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#32 » by Kurtz » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:46 am

Schad wrote:
vaff87 wrote:What team would make the most sense for a Donaldson trade?


While no one would want to trade a star to a divisional rival, the Red Sox would be a logical destination. Sandoval looks like he's done, and Bogaerts has settled in at SS. They could easily put together a package centered around Rafael Devers (serious prospect at 3B), Jason Groome (big-time LHP) and others if they decide to chuck everything to compete in the near term.

Plus, depleting the Red Sox farm medium-term to help them compete while we suck wouldn't be so bad.


I am extremely repulsed... yet wholly intrigued by that idea. No doubt Dombrowski would seriously entertain the idea of packaging both Devers and Groome for JD.

At the same time, I'd really prefer to ship him to the NL. With nearly 2 years of control, he may be intriguing to a team like the Mets, who currently have the corpse of Jose Reyes playing 3B. Getting Amed Rosario from them would be quite nice.
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Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#33 » by vaff87 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:47 am

Kurtz wrote:
Schad wrote:
vaff87 wrote:What team would make the most sense for a Donaldson trade?


While no one would want to trade a star to a divisional rival, the Red Sox would be a logical destination. Sandoval looks like he's done, and Bogaerts has settled in at SS. They could easily put together a package centered around Rafael Devers (serious prospect at 3B), Jason Groome (big-time LHP) and others if they decide to chuck everything to compete in the near term.

Plus, depleting the Red Sox farm medium-term to help them compete while we suck wouldn't be so bad.


I am extremely repulsed... yet wholly intrigued by that idea. No doubt Dombrowski would seriously entertain the idea of packaging both Devers and Groome for JD.

At the same time, I'd really prefer to ship him to the NL. With nearly 2 years of control, he may be intriguing to a team like the Mets, who currently have the corpse of Jose Reyes playing 3B. Getting Amed Rosario from them would be quite nice.


That's the team and player that came to mind for me, as well.
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Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#34 » by Schad » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:49 am

The Mets do have David Wright; even with his pretty serious injury woes, I'd be surprised if they moved for a big-time 3B, because they'll be paying Wright through 2020.
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Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#35 » by dagger » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:16 am

Schad wrote:
dballislife wrote:president, gm, and every coach needs to go too


No, this is silly. The president and GM inherited this eventuality; it's hardly their fault that they were handed a situation that anyone who paid the slightest attention to our future could tell would end in an ugly fashion.


Indeed, this was all foretold, and discussed at length, when those deadline trades were made in 2015. This was a Faustian bargain, and it got us two playoff appearances and a lot of thrills, but it was plainly evident to all who cared to admit it that the window these trades set up was narrow. Indeed, AA gave up 15 pitching prospects to acquire four veterans in the summer of 2015. Tulo was the only one who lasted in Toronto beyond 2015.

I'd also like to address those who say, well, they were just prospects and how many of them ever make it to the majors.

If Alex Anthopoulos had never made a trade - only developed talent organically and signed free agents, our starting pitching staff today would be

- Noah Syndergaard
- Marcus Stroman
- Aaron Sanchez
- Daniel Norris
- Jeff Hoffman (who has made it to Colorado), Kendall Graveline (who has just had a great start to the season for the A's), or Joe Musgrove

I grant you, we would not have Donaldson or Tulo, and the 2015 and 2016 playoff appearances might not have happened, but consider that the starting pitching staff I have just listed would be earning a combined $3 million this season, vs the $41 million for the staff we have. Instead of Russell Martin, we'd probably have Travis d'Arnaud catching for a fraction of Martin's money. Franklin Barreto would be a shining star on the horizon.

So this team would be young and athletic, with loads of money to burn on veteran free agents. And the farm system would still be loaded.

2015 and 2016 playoffs wouldn't have happened. But we'd be on the verge of SUSTAINED success, a large window of opportunity with a rich asset pool in the minors which could be used in trades.

That's why I have always been for organic growth and a patient plan. Ash/Ricciardi couldn't develop the asset base, but AA could. He just squandered a huge amount of assets in 2012 and 2015 for what proved to be one two-year window based on maxxing Jose's and Edwin's prime.
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Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#36 » by Kurtz » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:49 am

The Dickey trade was always bad, even on day 1. That aside though...I'm pretty happy with our two deep playoff runs, even if it costs us a 3 year rebuild. It rejuvenated the city after a 20 year playoff absence, gave us some epic memories (specially in 2015), and showed Rogers the magnitude of our dormant fanbase and that it was ok to spend a little money because they could make it back in spades.

And not doing anything during Bats and EE's prime would have haunted us for a while, just like not doing anything during Doc's prime does, I think.
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Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#37 » by Schad » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:56 am

Kurtz wrote:The Dickey trade was always bad, even on day 1. That aside though...I'm pretty happy with our two deep playoff runs, even if it costs us a 3 year rebuild. It rejuvenated the city after a 20 year playoff absence, gave us some epic memories (specially in 2015), and showed Rogers the magnitude of our dormant fanbase and that it was ok to spend a little money because they could make it back in spades.


I was about as against the trades as anyone, but I'm not angry with them in retrospect. My threshold, when we made the deadline deals for Price et al, was that we either had to make the World Series or make two deep runs for them to be worthwhile in retrospect, and we did the latter. I'll certainly always wonder what might have been, but that's just how I operate.

And it definitely showed us that the fanbase will come back at a moment's notice, which I think bodes well for a rebuild. We don't have to rush it; if we end up in a position where we have the depth of talent we did in 2013 again, we can be pretty confident that there's no worries about long-term alienation from waiting an extra season or two, because we went 22 years and everyone flooded back as soon as we were competing. That was the aperitif; hopefully we do it right now, and in a few years serve the main course.
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Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#38 » by JaysRule15 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:55 am

That Happ trade (when we got him for the first time) never made sense to me at all. We gave up so many prospects for what was basically a mediocre, journeyman level starter. Yeah, I get that most of the prospects we gave up were B level guys. But, sometimes, even those B level guys pan out, Would've been nice to have a guy like Musgrove on a cheap cost controlled deal right now.

The one thing I'll give AA is that he knew how to draft pitchers though. Aside from McGuire being his only notable failure, AA drafted/internationally signed a lot of high ceiling arms.
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Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#39 » by North_of_Border » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:52 pm

Question:

Even if the Jays are over 500 by mid season and Boston offers Devers, Groome & a mid level prospect for Donaldson. Do you do it?

I mean the goal is long term sustainability rite?

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Re: What does a Jays firesale look like? 

Post#40 » by vaff87 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:27 am

North_of_Border wrote:Question:

Even if the Jays are over 500 by mid season and Boston offers Devers, Groome & a mid level prospect for Donaldson. Do you do it?

I mean the goal is long term sustainability rite?

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