ST: Jays (39-45) vs Astros @ Rogers Centre, July 6-9

[fouronesix22]

look at the bright side guys, this embarrassment should be the last piece of convincing that management needs to blow this thing up. But what we are hearing from them is completely different...sigh we are going to be terrible for years to come if they dont pull the plug and do a full rebuild starting now

Simple reason why: 46,659 yesterday, 46,622 today.

Now, if it craters in August and September when we're out of it, that could change matters. My belief, unsupported by nothing in particular, is that Shapiro probably thinks that a tear-down is necessary, but doesn't have ownership backing. So we could see a couple of the expiring veterans moved at the deadline, and more of a complete shift in the offseason if/when fan interest cools.

Or, we could see Rogers panic and try to force our management team to do everything in their power to get us back to a .500-ish team with recognizable names next year, because that's how they roll.

I dont know how they cant realize that if they try to buy at the trade deadline this team is still going to suck. 2018 if they keep the same core and get more old players they wont make the playoffs and the "fanbase" they dont want to upset...will be UPSET!. So regardless the fans are going to be pissed with either result so choose the better option which is a teardown.

Shapiro said it here http://www.yardbarker.com/mlb/articles/mark_shapiro_josh_donaldson_trade_unlikely_to_improve_blue_jays/s1_127_24317767

quote from that article “I’m not saying it’s impossible but it’s hard for me to foresee any scenario where you trade one of the best players in baseball and get better.”

They are obviously looking at the near future as in 2018 instead of making the team better for years to come. This is just sad although ill try to keep my hopes up that they dismantle this team so we can possibly become contenders for years to come

[TOStateofMind]

blow this baby up shatkins

[Santoki]

look at the bright side guys, this embarrassment should be the last piece of convincing that management needs to blow this thing up. But what we are hearing from them is completely different...sigh we are going to be terrible for years to come if they dont pull the plug and do a full rebuild starting now

Simple reason why: 46,659 yesterday, 46,622 today.

Now, if it craters in August and September when we're out of it, that could change matters. My belief, unsupported by nothing in particular, is that Shapiro probably thinks that a tear-down is necessary, but doesn't have ownership backing. So we could see a couple of the expiring veterans moved at the deadline, and more of a complete shift in the offseason if/when fan interest cools.

Or, we could see Rogers panic and try to force our management team to do everything in their power to get us back to a .500-ish team with recognizable names next year, because that's how they roll.

I dont know how they cant realize that if they try to buy at the trade deadline this team is still going to suck. 2018 if they keep the same core and get more old players they wont make the playoffs and the "fanbase" they dont want to upset...will be UPSET!. So regardless the fans are going to be pissed with either result so choose the better option which is a teardown.

Shapiro said it here http://www.yardbarker.com/mlb/articles/mark_shapiro_josh_donaldson_trade_unlikely_to_improve_blue_jays/s1_127_24317767

quote from that article “I’m not saying it’s impossible but it’s hard for me to foresee any scenario where you trade one of the best players in baseball and get better.”

They are obviously looking at the near future as in 2018 instead of making the team better for years to come. This is just sad although ill try to keep my hopes up that they dismantle this team so we can possibly become contenders for years to come

When you have guys like Steve Phillips writing nonsense like this - http://www.tsn.ca/there-s-no-reason-for-blue-jays-to-rebuild-1.799066 - it's easy to see how the average fan still thinks that this team can compete with this core.

"At the halfway point in the season, clubs are not just hot or cold anymore. They’re good, bad or mediocre. Injuries can make the evaluation incomplete, but this deep in the season you are what your record says you are. Improved health may provide some hope for the second half, but teams can’t undo the results of the first half.

The Jays are a sub-.500 team because of injuries and underperformance. The lack of depth in the upper levels of the minor leagues has been exposed by the number of injuries. The Jays have talent at the minor-league level, but most of it is at Class-A Dunedin or below."

So, injuries aren't an excuse according to Phillips but at the same time he thinks this same old, aging and declining core can compete with a couple of tweaks and the $40 million freed up in FA. It would take some MAJOR patching and luck to turn this club around with just that money and two starters and an OF to replace while carrying the $20 million corpses of Tulo and Martin (I suppose to a slightly lesser extent).

[Schad]

So, injuries aren't an excuse according to Phillips but at the same time he thinks this same old, aging and declining core can compete with a couple of tweaks and the $40 million freed up in FA. It would take some MAJOR patching and luck to turn this club around with just that money and two starters and an OF to replace while carrying the $20 million corpses of Tulo and Martin (I suppose to a slightly lesser extent).

I'm quite fond of:

Everyone thought the window was closing on the Jays last season because Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion were impending free agents, but the roster was rebuilt in the off-season to try to win this year. The same logic that was used for this season will be used next year.

That everyone to whom you refer? They were right! The window did close and we're one of the worst teams in baseball despite shuffling the roster to try to compete this season! Why would you do that again!

[JaysRule15]

The Toronto fanbase loves a winner, and right now the glory of the last two Jays' seasons are fresh in everyone's mind. But I guarantee that a good chunk of those people currently filling out the Rogers Centre won't be coming by September if the team continues to suck, let alone next year. There's probably a dedicated core of 20-25K fans in this city that would come to games no matter what. The rest are on the bandwagon who really only tuned in these past couple of seasons when the team became good.

My point is that you'll lose the bandwagonners regardless of whether you decide to go young for a rebuild, or have these washed up "big name" vets play out the string for the next couple of years. Only difference is that a rebuild could let this team be competitive again by 2020, while staying the course means we return to the early-late 2000s where the franchise was lacking direction and was never good enough to compete in this division.

A corporate owner like Rogers only sees the current attendance and hype around the team and wants to retain it at all costs. Shapiro needs to stands up here and start the youth movement like he did in Cleveland. A violent disruption lasting a couple of seasons is a lot better than a gradual decay lasting for years and years.

[LLJ]

Give credit to baseball casuals in Toronto, they always get the memo later than hockey or bball fans, who tend to begin checking out of their teams much earlier. In general they are much less cynical than fans of other teams. On the other hand, many of today's Jays fans probably don't even remember that 20+ year playoff drought

[flatjacket1]

Give credit to baseball casuals in Toronto, they always get the memo later than hockey or bball fans, who tend to begin checking out of their teams much earlier. In general they are much less cynical than fans of other teams. On the other hand, many of today's Jays fans probably don't even remember that 20+ year playoff drought

I'd also say that competitive balance is more an issue in those leagues, and we have played an equivalent of 42 games so far (162 vs 82). Our record is comparable to 19-21. Typically there is always one or two teams who are 32-10 at that point as well. In the MLB it is also normal to be able to not touch your MLB roster and add vast amounts of talent, such as Cub's deal today.

Not having patience in baseball won't get you very far either. 10-1 runs and 1-10 runs both happen to team no matter how good or how bad.

[Schad]

I'd also say that competitive balance is more an issue in those leagues, and we have played an equivalent of 42 games so far (162 vs 82). Our record is comparable to 19-21. Typically there is always one or two teams who are 32-10 at that point as well. In the MLB it is also normal to be able to not touch your MLB roster and add vast amounts of talent, such as Cub's deal today.

Not having patience in baseball won't get you very far either. 10-1 runs and 1-10 runs both happen to team no matter how good or how bad.

However, in baseball the spread of teams is much smaller. The Raptors' somewhat-disappointing 51-31 last year? That'd be good for the second-best winning percentage in baseball last year, close on the heels of the Cubs.

10-1 stretches happen, definitely. But it's much harder in baseball to run off half a season of .600 ball than it is in the NBA, by virtue of the fact that it's hard to be a consistent .600 team, period.