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Cathal Kelly: No rebuild means Jays heading to mediocrity, or worse

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:55 pm
by dagger
I don't usually agree with him, though he does turn a nice phrase in most of his columns

But in my view, this one nails it right between the eyes.

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/sports/baseball/kelly-no-rebuild-here-jays-shapiro-charts-the-middle-way-forward-to-mediocrity-or-worse/article36271949/
Shapiro is sitting in his Rogers Centre office, which is as spare and orderly as an operatory, slapping a table for emphasis.

Given his Ivy League twinset (sweater vest, button-down shirt), linebacker build and MBA patter, everything about Shapiro screams "America." But the Canadas are contagious, especially during late summer when the Jays are tumbling toward the end of a lost season.

Back in May, when everyone was still talking as though the year could be saved (though they knew it was doomed), Shapiro sat in this same office and testily batted questions away. Asked if the team was balanced (because it isn't), he said, "I don't have to answer that."

Well, if not him, then who?

It was a down time for everyone. After all those wild nights of back-to-back playoff runs, the Blue Jays were waking up face down on the bathroom floor.

That strain showed on Shapiro. The smile was tighter, the jargon thicker.

That's changed.

As what was likely to happen has become what's happened, Shapiro is more at ease. Perhaps that's because the organization has made its decision – this aging roster will be ridden until the end. All the back-and-forth about blowing up the Blue Jays is – internally, at least – over.

"We have what we think is an objective chance to contend [next season]," Shapiro says, enunciating carefully. "Admittedly, that's contingent on us staying healthy, which is something we did two years ago and didn't this year."

So there you go – it's ride-or-die baseball for one more season, and then the whole thing begins to come apart on its own.

That will enrage some people. This sort of course – the middle way, the maybe-things-will-turn-out way – led the Jays into two uninterrupted decades of mediocrity.

Given his druthers, Shapiro might choose the other way, the risky way. He's seen how Houston and the Chicago Cubs did it – by tearing out the foundation and rebuilding entirely. If performance were the only consideration, that would be the route to take.

But the Jays are stuck between those models for financial reasons.

The Cubs had a long history of losing while also maintaining massive fan support. They could afford to string out patience on the north side of town for a few years longer.

The Astros arrived at the same solution for the opposite reason – nobody in Houston cared. There was no disadvantage to going several more seasons with a ballpark that would be just as empty.

Though a loser, Toronto is still drawing substantial crowds (fifth-most in baseball) and still has healthy TV numbers (averaging in the neighbourhood of 800,000 viewers a game in the midst of a lost September). The club knows from experience that will evaporate if the team is publicly seen to be giving up. It's a non-starter from ownership's perspective.

While going on about "the incredible passion" of Jays' fans, Shapiro also charts its limits.

"It's not something that's deeply rooted. It's not something that's long term," Shapiro says. "It's historic, but with a long interval in between (meaning 1994 to 2014). Our job is to give fans something to cheer about. Right now, the easiest thing to cheer about is winning baseball."

So there will be no sell-off or tear-down. Josh Donaldson will not be traded over the winter for prospects nor will any of the other key, young pieces. A few spots will be open – left field and/or right field, the usual toss-up at the end of the starting order. Jose Bautista will be gently released back into the marketplace. Despite his sudden decline this year, Troy Tulowitzki will remain the shortstop.

The news here is that there's no news.

Meanwhile, they'll put their faith in a minor-league system that Shapiro says is now among the top-10 in baseball. The most promising players in it are still teenagers.

At some point, the Jays will have to jump from "win right now" to whatever's coming next. It's going to be a considerable distance – a couple of depressingly mediocre years at the very least. But no one in the Jays corner suites is ever going to say the word "rebuild" in front of a microphone. There are many millions of reasons not to.

Re: Cathal Kelly: No rebuild means Jays heading to mediocrity, or worse

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:18 pm
by vaff87
I'll trust the guys who built this Indians juggernaut to know how to build a winning tea.

Re: Cathal Kelly: No rebuild means Jays heading to mediocrity, or worse

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:41 pm
by Schad
I trust that Shapiro and Atkins know how to build a winning team. The issue is that they aren't the ones calling the shots on team direction...we're playing for 2018 at the expense of all else despite Shapiro being less than enthused about our prospects of actually winning in 2018.

Re: Cathal Kelly: No rebuild means Jays heading to mediocrity, or worse

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:47 pm
by I_Like_Dirt
While true, Schad, I tend to judge Shapiro more by actions than words, and thus far he's proven pretty damn astute at judging talent. I can live with the team trying to "compete" provided they're simply sitting on their existing "stars" aren't throwing away picks and prospects to add more aging vets other than maybe a small-ish free agent contract here or there while also sniffing around younger adds like Gurriel last year. It's an easier job with more chances to get things right, but I trust Shapiro and his crew at this point.

Re: Cathal Kelly: No rebuild means Jays heading to mediocrity, or worse

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:59 pm
by Schad
I_Like_Dirt wrote:While true, Schad, I tend to judge Shapiro more by actions than words, and thus far he's proven pretty damn astute at judging talent. I can live with the team trying to "compete" provided they're simply sitting on their existing "stars" aren't throwing away picks and prospects to add more aging vets other than maybe a small-ish free agent contract here or there while also sniffing around younger adds like Gurriel last year. It's an easier job with more chances to get things right, but I trust Shapiro and his crew at this point.


We need more than just what we can get from picks and IFA, though. Our next wave of talent hits the bigs in a couple years...most draft picks won't reach the bigs until 2021 or later, most IFAs longer still.

That's particularly problematic given that we have sweet fk all for starting pitching in the minors. If we don't trade our current vets, we're going to have great difficulty getting pitching that we don't overpay for.

Re: Cathal Kelly: No rebuild means Jays heading to mediocrity, or worse

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:05 pm
by Skin Blues
I_Like_Dirt wrote:While true, Schad, I tend to judge Shapiro more by actions than words, and thus far he's proven pretty damn astute at judging talent. I can live with the team trying to "compete" provided they're simply sitting on their existing "stars" aren't throwing away picks and prospects to add more aging vets other than maybe a small-ish free agent contract here or there while also sniffing around younger adds like Gurriel last year. It's an easier job with more chances to get things right, but I trust Shapiro and his crew at this point.

By sitting on our current stars, we are throwing away prospects. If we had held onto Liriano, that'd be the equivalent of throwing away Teoscar Hernandez. If we had held onto Joe Smith, that'd be the equivalent of throwing away Thomas Pannone. We gave up a TON of prospect capital by holding onto Stroman, Donaldson, Osuna, etc. Maybe that is the right move, maybe not, but it was definitely very costly to keep those guys in terms of lost prospects.

Re: Cathal Kelly: No rebuild means Jays heading to mediocrity, or worse

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:38 pm
by SharoneWright

Re: Cathal Kelly: No rebuild means Jays heading to mediocrity, or worse

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:56 pm
by C Court
That was a pretty mediocre opinion/article by Cathal. Stoeten didn't think much of it either and he rips it apart here.

Read on Twitter

Re: Cathal Kelly: No rebuild means Jays heading to mediocrity, or worse

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:02 pm
by C Court
vaff87 wrote:I'll trust the guys who built this Indians juggernaut to know how to build a winning tea.


Exactly. In 2016 they took over from Alex and pretty much had to run with the team as constructed. This year they started to make some moves and they seem headed in the right direction. I'm willing to give them another year or two before pressing the panac button. Jays are in better shape to build a long term winner with Shapiro, than if Alex had stayed.

Re: Cathal Kelly: No rebuild means Jays heading to mediocrity, or worse

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:47 pm
by wamco
I think you trade josh and Osuna ( and Pearce and morales if someone takes them). Middle ground between a total rebuild and rogers sitting on players to keep attendance up.

Josh is leaving anyway and young closers can bring a haul. Losing Pearce and morales won't hurt much

Re: Cathal Kelly: No rebuild means Jays heading to mediocrity, or worse

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:48 pm
by wamco
Double post

Re: Cathal Kelly: No rebuild means Jays heading to mediocrity, or worse

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:53 pm
by dagger
Centre Court wrote:
vaff87 wrote:I'll trust the guys who built this Indians juggernaut to know how to build a winning tea.


Exactly. In 2016 they took over from Alex and pretty much had to run with the team as constructed. This year they started to make some moves and they seem headed in the right direction. I'm willing to give them another year or two before pressing the panac button. Jays are in better shape to build a long term winner with Shapiro, than if Alex had stayed.


I have to disagree with you, and side with Schad here. I like their collective skillset on this management team, but winning in the short term with what they are good at is going to require more than free agent signings and draft picks. It's a good bet that if they can't do what they really want to do, and have to go through a facade competing, creating a Potemkin Village of a spring contender, there will be at least one more dumb signing like Morales, who clogs up a position and produces a poor ROI, and will do so for years. Even if we re-sign Estrada, we are no more likely to get great health out of a bunch of 30 year olds who are aging poorly, regressing even faster than I would have expected.

This team is terrible offensively, terrible defensively, and is fragile on the mound.

I'd like to know what we could get this winter for Donaldson,t if there is a top 10 prospect in the offer, that accelerates the inevitable rebuild. Getting a pick for him after 2018 means even if that pick proves to be a major league talent, it will be 2023-25 before that player reaches the majors, whereas a top 10 prospect in AA or AAA might arrive in 2019-20 at the same time as Guerrero and Bichette. On the fan suffering index, the different between acting aggressively now against a 2019-20 target reduces the number of lost seasons the Jays will have before they can legitimately contend with the Yankees and Red Sox who are only going to get better in the interim.

No, on this one, I'm 100% with Kelly.

Re: Cathal Kelly: No rebuild means Jays heading to mediocrity, or worse

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:34 am
by C Court
Shapiro has been here for two years and he has a lot of work to do. No question. But to be in panic mode after year two before we see what moves are made this off season is silly.

I was criticizing Alex in year five and got hammered here for not being patient enough. Now we're dumping on Shapiro because he hasn't solved all the Jays problems in two seasons. Uh, okay. :roll:

Re: Cathal Kelly: No rebuild means Jays heading to mediocrity, or worse

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:38 am
by wamco
I think you trade josh and Osuna ( and Pearce and morales if someone takes them). Middle ground between a total rebuild and rogers sitting on players to keep attendance up.

Josh is leaving anyway and young closers can bring a haul. Losing Pearce and morales won't hurt much

Cathal Kelly: No rebuild means Jays heading to mediocrity, or worse

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:40 am
by North_of_Border
Baseball unlike basketball, as in you can rebuild but at the same time compete. You don't need to tank to build long term. You can win and build at the same time.

You keep scouting out good prospects, while signing decent veterans to be contributors short term until the young guys are ready. But make smart signings, of guys who will actually contribute. Slowly the young guys will take over and you won't even notice.

However...... you can't do that with a core made of old, regressing, over paid veterans and your prospects years away from ready for the show. The Jays are just that. For that reason I agree with Kelly

Re: Cathal Kelly: No rebuild means Jays heading to mediocrity, or worse

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:11 am
by C Court
Shapiro inherited just one real ugly contract with Tulo. Martin has one year left at $20 million. Happ, Pearce and even Morales are not unmoveable albatross contracts. Bautista is gone in two weeks. So I don't see this old, overpaid core that apparently is preventing Shapiro from changing the composition of the Jays moving forward.

He wasn't dealt a perfect hand by Alex when he left, but Shapiro isn't without viable options to make the Jays better. Now maybe it won't happen fast enough to satisfy some fans. Remember that Alex tried to accelerate a rebuild, which is a building plan that's not without it's problems. Some of which Shapiro is dealing with now.

Re: Cathal Kelly: No rebuild means Jays heading to mediocrity, or worse

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:58 am
by Schad
The problem isn't accelerating a rebuild, it's having any rebuild. All indications are that we don't intend to do that: we want to compete in 2018, and if fan interest is still there, we have talked about our window extending through 2020, when we'll lose Sanchez, Stroman and Osuna to free agency. The latter, in particular, is not going to be a panacea no matter how skilled Shapiro and Atkins are; no matter who your GM might be, in FA you can choose two of young, good and affordable, but you're damned sure not going to get all three.

So what we're left with is not a rebuild, and neither is it competitive in the short term. It doesn't have the money available to make a difference that way, isn't awash with disposable young assets to move in trade, and is entirely unwilling to move the assets of actual value we do have. Unless we're thinking that they're going to trade a nickel for a dollar a half-dozen times, I'm really unsure how we're expecting them to turn this around while our best players walk out the door a couple at a time each year from 2018-2020.

Re: Cathal Kelly: No rebuild means Jays heading to mediocrity, or worse

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:02 am
by vaff87
I really don't know why we're even talking about this, before something actually happens. Everything at this point is just speculation.

Re: Cathal Kelly: No rebuild means Jays heading to mediocrity, or worse

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:05 am
by vaff87
Schad wrote:The problem isn't accelerating a rebuild, it's having any rebuild. All indications are that we don't intend to do that: we want to compete in 2018, and if fan interest is still there, we have talked about our window extending through 2020, when we'll lose Sanchez, Stroman and Osuna to free agency. The latter, in particular, is not going to be a panacea no matter how skilled Shapiro and Atkins are; no matter who your GM might be, in FA you can choose two of young, good and affordable, but you're damned sure not going to get all three.

So what we're left with is not a rebuild, and neither is it competitive in the short term. It doesn't have the money available to make a difference that way, isn't awash with disposable young assets to move in trade, and is entirely unwilling to move the assets of actual value we do have. Unless we're thinking that they're going to trade a nickel for a dollar a half-dozen times, I'm really unsure how we're expecting them to turn this around while our best players walk out the door a couple at a time each year from 2018-2020.


I wanted to trade Sanchez the moment he hired Scott Boras. Unfortunately, his value has fallen since then.

Re: Cathal Kelly: No rebuild means Jays heading to mediocrity, or worse

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:07 am
by Schad
Our team president is talking about it though, and has made his intentions abundantly clear. We won't rebuild, because we're getting good crowds. We'll try to give Donaldson a massive extension through his decline years, because he's popular. These are things we've explicitly stated that we'll pursue.