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Shocked

I’m sure they told him he just needed AB’s to get his timing back and then he’d be back with the big club.

Toronto
2B-Gurriel Jr./Solarte
SS-Diaz/Tulo

Buffalo
2B-Travis/Lopes
SS-Ngoepe

New Hampshire
2B-Biggio
SS-Bichette

Dunedin
2B-La Prise
SS-Urena/Warmoth/Gudino/Cardenas

Lansing
2B-Large/Taylor
SS-Smith/Vicuna


Even Espinosa just opted out. It is not looking good for Travis if he continue to struggle at the plate. Once Donaldson is back at 3rd base, Solarte may shift over to 2nd base(or DH). Biggio and Bichette can catch up quickly. Guys in Dunedin are struggling but guys in Lansing are tearing up.

Not sure how many of those players can contribute for the Bluejays in the future, but I guess it is good to have depth in the middle in-fields.

manjusaka wrote:Toronto
2B-Gurriel Jr./Solarte
SS-Diaz/Tulo

Buffalo
2B-Travis/Lopes
SS-Ngoepe

New Hampshire
2B-Biggio
SS-Bichette

Dunedin
2B-La Prise
SS-Urena/Warmoth/Gudino/Cardenas

Lansing
2B-Large/Taylor
SS-Smith/Vicuna


Even Espinosa just opted out. It is not looking good for Travis if he continue to struggle at the plate. Once Donaldson is back at 3rd base, Solarte may shift over to 2nd base(or DH). Biggio and Bichette can catch up quickly. Guys in Dunedin are struggling but guys in Lansing are tearing up.

Not sure how many of those players can contribute for the Bluejays in the future, but I guess it is good to have depth in the middle in-fields.

Even better, none of them are named Ryan Goins.

The_Hater wrote:Even better, none of them are named Ryan Goins.

From the development side, I agree. But tbh I didn't mind him as a glove first bench player. Late inning defensive replacement, the odd start (like every 15 games). Black hole at the plate though, extended AB's never is a good idea.

"Glove first defensive replacement" is the biggest waste of a roster spot, in my opinion. I don't know why people seem to think backups for SS and C need to be glove first. I think it will continue to fall out of fashion across the league, even moreso than it already has. I'd much rather have a guy competent with the bat be in those spots, even if they're weak on defense. Because even if you manage to keep their weak bat out of the lineup for the majority of the season (which never ends up happening anyway due to injuries) they are wasted roster spots. Why not have a guy that can also pinch hit during the 75% of games they're on the bench??

Skin Blues wrote:"Glove first defensive replacement" is the biggest waste of a roster spot, in my opinion. I don't know why people seem to think backups for SS and C need to be glove first. I think it will continue to fall out of fashion across the league, even moreso than it already has. I'd much rather have a guy competent with the bat be in those spots, even if they're weak on defense. Because even if you manage to keep their weak bat out of the lineup for the majority of the season (which never ends up happening anyway due to injuries) they are wasted roster spots. Why not have a guy that can also pinch hit during the 75% of games they're on the bench??

Travis isn't even good with the bat though. Defense will never fall out of fashion, Travis is the worst 2B glove in MLB.

Anyway great move!

Skin Blues wrote:"Glove first defensive replacement" is the biggest waste of a roster spot, in my opinion. I don't know why people seem to think backups for SS and C need to be glove first. I think it will continue to fall out of fashion across the league, even moreso than it already has. I'd much rather have a guy competent with the bat be in those spots, even if they're weak on defense. Because even if you manage to keep their weak bat out of the lineup for the majority of the season (which never ends up happening anyway due to injuries) they are wasted roster spots. Why not have a guy that can also pinch hit during the 75% of games they're on the bench??

Glove first backup C makes way more sense. A couple plays can ruin the game (ex twins) and a plus hitting backup C will only out hit the average hitting backup C in a handful of theoretical games over the year (most games even AS'ers go 0 for).

A glove first backup INF is easier to debate. It is a roster spot to essentially field the ball in an area where they might not even get one hit there way. I like it for the versatility. Most games you don't need to use both backup infielders, so having both be averagish bats makes little sense to me (if they could truly hit and not have 100 errors they'd be a starter).

If you put outcomes in a vacuum, each season your glove first backup has a 35-40% chance of outhitting your bat first. The variance on 150 PA is so significant that even playing the better hitter won't actually yield consistently better results. Every few years people like the idea of a bat first backup, and then Montero comes and their prayers are answered. Guy can't throw out retired players and makes errors/passed balls unforced and still goes 0 for most nights. We lost a couple games last year with bat first backups (Rob Ref, Raffy) with unforced errors. To me, it's hard to argue the extra base hit per month (literally around what it works out to in most cases) is worth a single winnable game thrown away once a fortnight. Also I know a lot of people think Maile is legit now, but he is mostly the same hitter. It's possible for anybody to excel in 20-40 PA's. Imagine bringing in a bat first backup last off-season to have Maile play defense better every night and hit better on some nights.

I agree with a guy who can pinch hit 75% of games, but that means he is a better hitter than a regular. If he also fields that position, why are we holding a better hitter on the bench than in the lineup? Morales is a good example of a guy who can pinch hit 75% of nights, and then have a defensive replacement. To me, finding a backup SS who outhits Morales, plays SS and can be averagish defensively is not a backup but an All-star on the bench every night. You can have a guy who hits like a top 5 SS (Morales) and then plug in a guy who can field like a top 10 SS (Goins) once per night. If you mix those players together and try and acquire them, you are looking at Vlad + Bo ++.

Skin Blues wrote:"Glove first defensive replacement" is the biggest waste of a roster spot, in my opinion. I don't know why people seem to think backups for SS and C need to be glove first. I think it will continue to fall out of fashion across the league, even moreso than it already has. I'd much rather have a guy competent with the bat be in those spots, even if they're weak on defense. Because even if you manage to keep their weak bat out of the lineup for the majority of the season (which never ends up happening anyway due to injuries) they are wasted roster spots. Why not have a guy that can also pinch hit during the 75% of games they're on the bench??

Definitely agree if you have competent starting MIs defensively. Where we have a lot of right-handed (or switch), bat-first MIs, I can see some utility in having the all-glove backup who has decent speed to pinch-run for the 80 year olds, because who do we even PH hit for in AL play at the moment? Pretty much just other MIs, and if we had someone internally who was better with the bat and able to play a more-or-less useful 2B/SS, they'd already be starting.

Schad wrote:

Skin Blues wrote:"Glove first defensive replacement" is the biggest waste of a roster spot, in my opinion. I don't know why people seem to think backups for SS and C need to be glove first. I think it will continue to fall out of fashion across the league, even moreso than it already has. I'd much rather have a guy competent with the bat be in those spots, even if they're weak on defense. Because even if you manage to keep their weak bat out of the lineup for the majority of the season (which never ends up happening anyway due to injuries) they are wasted roster spots. Why not have a guy that can also pinch hit during the 75% of games they're on the bench??

Definitely agree if you have competent starting MIs defensively. Where we have a lot of right-handed (or switch), bat-first MIs, I can see some utility in having the all-glove backup who has decent speed to pinch-run for the 80 year olds, because who do we even PH hit for in AL play at the moment? Pretty much just other MIs, and if we had someone internally who was better with the bat and able to play a more-or-less useful 2B/SS, they'd already be starting.

Yeah it's not like competent hitting shortstops are as freely available as glove-only shortstops, but I think there's a lot more value in them. And I consider the usage of a roster spot to be a cost in and of itself. Having a guy like Aledmys Diaz, who is competent offensively (and has some upside), and capable-though-not-great defensively as a SS, is a nice bonus over a guy like Goins. Same with Solarte. You pay a bit more for those types, but not too much more, and you don't pay the opportunity cost of carrying a useless hitter than can't provide even replacement value if they need to be plugged in at 3B or 2B for a while. There's just such a limited amount of value to be squeezed out of a guy that has a great glove at SS but can't hit at all. Defensive replacements give you one inning per game, and any more than that and their negative value offensively outweighs the defense. As you mentioned, it's nice to have a speedster that can pinch run. But Goins is slow, and Diaz is actually pretty fast.

No doubt, I'd carry a Diaz over a Goins. But while Tulo is out I'd back up a Diaz with a (quicker) version of Goins, rather than another Diaz, if that makes any sense.

Skin Blues wrote:Yeah it's not like competent hitting shortstops are as freely available as glove-only shortstops, but I think there's a lot more value in them. And I consider the usage of a roster spot to be a cost in and of itself. Having a guy like Aledmys Diaz, who is competent offensively (and has some upside), and capable-though-not-great defensively as a SS, is a nice bonus over a guy like Goins. Same with Solarte. You pay a bit more for those types, but not too much more, and you don't pay the opportunity cost of carrying a useless hitter than can't provide even replacement value if they need to be plugged in at 3B or 2B for a while. There's just such a limited amount of value to be squeezed out of a guy that has a great glove at SS but can't hit at all. Defensive replacements give you one inning per game, and any more than that and their negative value offensively outweighs the defense. As you mentioned, it's nice to have a speedster that can pinch run. But Goins is slow, and Diaz is actually pretty fast.

I feel like the biggest issue is what you classify as a bat first backup.

Diaz is not really a utility guy. For now, he will platoon but if he hits well (.260/.330/.425) he is easily a starting SS even with his below average defense. If you want to compare a bat first backup, you are looking at the guys who are either worse defensively than Diaz but can hit the same or worse offensively and defend the same. A bat first backup still shouldn't outhit your starter at the same position, unless they are consistently and quantifiably better defensively by a decent margin.

Every year the only bat first backups at C and SS that people say we should get are either hitting exceptionally over the last season (so a fairly meaningless 160 PA) or not a backup at all. If his wRC+ is positive and can field the position he is not a backup.

1 innings per game is 162 innings per year. That's pretty big. I know you didn't mean it literally, but if in a tie game Diaz just hit in the top of the 8th, and he gets out, you put in Goins for 2 innings with a limited chance of him batting. If he does bat, it's likely because we have a lead. I know this seems oddly specific, but there are many situations where Diaz would have a last at bat in the last 2 innings. Even though Diaz is undeniably an upgrade with the bat over Goins, in 8 complete games this year Goins has gotten a hit in 4 of them (two of them multi hit). 11 complete games games in 22 Diaz has gotten a hit, with two of 11 games having mulit-hits.

Not arguing that Goins is in any way better, but the notion that a better bat in a backup role always wins offensively is laughable. It would take 7 seasons to stabilize within 8 points (range of 16) of their true talent wOBA. That assumes no changes in true talent (including weight, strength etc) which is obviously unrealistic. Performance over 150 PA for two ML players with even fairly significant differences in true talent (60+ basis points of wOBA) is still fairly random. For a starter, you need to weigh bat a lot more heavily as you can reach a reasonable sample size within 1.8 seasons. The other thing is why would we pinch hit a SS for a SS when you could easily burn two spots and pinch hit a league average 1B and then put in a strong defensive SS? How many games require full use of your bench?

With the talent that is competing for roster spots I can see Travis falling out of the picture here.

I thought he had star potential but could not stay healthy. Jays got all this better backup help for guys like him. However, that backup talent might lead to a trade involving him.

Maybe Travis just needs a change of scenery. He will be fine. But maybe the Jays need to move on.